Debbie:
[0:01] Welcome to Skin in the Game. I'm Debbie Go. Today's conversation won't change how you prepare for your next big discussion. Think about the last time you walked into a pitch, a negotiation, or a difficult conversation with your boss. How did you prepare? Most of us start with the same questions. What do I want to say and how should I say it? My guest today believes we're starting in the wrong place. Luis Ferreira spent years in the corporate world before becoming convinced that many communication failures have less to do with the idea itself and more to do with how that idea reaches the person on the other side. His approach starts with understanding how that person thinks, weighs risk, and builds trust, and how they make decisions. That insight led him to build Due. Due has now been tested in more than 80 real-world situations across U.S. and Brazil. Luis, welcome to Skin in a Game. It's great to have you here.

Luis:
[1:08] Thank you, Debbie. I love the opportunity.

Debbie:
[1:11] Before we get into Due, I'd love for listeners to get to know you a little better. What were you doing before you and what led you to become interested in communication as a problem worth solving?

Luis:
[1:24] Every time I listen to this conversation and how we began doing this, how we ended up here, I'm reminded of a singer called Rod Stewart that tells a little bit about my age. But every time somebody asked him how he began, he said, I was an undertaker. He said, well, I haven't reached that point, but I did so much. I was young when I was starting and I wanted to make my own money. And I work in various opportunities. I work in the party security. I worked as a roadie for a rock band.

Luis:
[1:56] I made and sell t-shirts with friends in school. Then as I moved on, I assembled computers, setting them up. I teach desktop publishing back when it was before the Canva world, where people had to understand all those softwares and platforms. But it was always service-related, and that's the root of my basis. I absolutely love engaging and being an entrepreneur, but also engaging and starting businesses and having ideas and servicing others and helping others. And that's probably the underlying common thread in my journey. As I look back, I also remember that I learned a lot from being fired. The first time I got fired, I was 10. I was working with my uncle in his restaurant and I was helping making sandwiches. And I loved it. I went to the club and every day it was, hey, great. I get there. One day, my mom gets a call from my uncle and says, can you please ask him not to come back? I said, why? Because he's spending too much ham and cheese. Customers love it, but he's not helping me make a profit. Probably everyone loved a chubby kid making sandwiches. Hey, get those sandwiches. It's going to be great. But then this is the little anecdote, but.

Luis:
[3:12] Illustrates how we learn from hard lessons and how these experiences, as you process them, probably feedback will get you someplace better than you were. We lived through a shift between centuries and the world in the 1990s was completely different than the one we're facing now. And I had to reassess that because my former experience with being an entrepreneur had to do with that. them. Back then, if you were a small company, you would have small customers. And that really matched my ambitions. I wanted to go higher, so I decided I needed a job.

Luis:
[3:52] I went to the corporate world looking for it. To begin with, I was working in an ad agency, and in there, I got fired again.

Luis:
[4:01] The interesting situation, it was my first experience working with 50 different people and a lot of dynamics. I already had small customers, but having a big client, it is different. And in some situation, I pressed course with one of the customers. The client wanted us to copycat, something that his competitor did, and I refused. I said, no, we're not going to do that. We'll make it better. We'll have our own. We'll develop this and that. And he wasn't that excited about that confrontation. And when I came back to work on Monday, my table was empty. And my colleagues were not looking at me. They were just like, you should go and meet the boss and there's something for you in there. So I said, okay. I went there. His secretary made me wait a lot. After that, he came in and his dynamic, it was completely opposite. He was warm. He was almost like a buddy. He told me about how he saw me and how I had bright things ahead, and they were limited. They couldn't really offer me what I needed to excel and thrive. And I believed. I said, hey, yeah, he's right. We're going to help you. I'll see big things coming your way, and we'll provide you some freelance work to adjust and this and that. I went there and said, hey, great. It took me about two weeks to realize, hey, I've been fired.

Luis:
[5:23] He conducted me in such a nice way. The lesson is that in the corporate environment, everyone I thought was my friend wasn't really. And those who I felt they were a painful relation, they were hard to manage, they were very generous. Those guys cared enough to provide feedback and to help me say, I don't agree. I think you should be doing this instead of that. And that brings us here because that was a big communication disconnect. And probably that's where it all got.

Luis:
[5:58] Interesting for me because I started to monitor and look into those things as my career evolved and always kept reminding me. First impressions may not be what you're thinking about. You're maybe not reading. And if you're looking at your boss and say, oh, he's resentful and he's not really giving me what I need. And probably he's being very generous, telling you what you should be doing, helping you navigate those waters that you don't really understand or not really aware. And it brings us why I decided to build the bridges between communication styles and how that changes how we actually relate. and the outcome of our projects.

Debbie:
[6:37] I agree with you. Communication, even a great idea, can fall flat because of how it lands with a person hearing it. So was there a particular moment, maybe a meeting or a negotiation or even a relationship where that really became clear to you?

Luis:
[6:56] I think getting fired and then realizing that I was really reading the room and understanding what's at stake and how it pivots completely the way you look at your experiences and facing hard outcomes. It is a learning experience nevertheless, because interaction between people happens every time. And it is directly connected to how we actually understand each other or we don't and how that leads. It's all communications related. And there's so many opportunities for miscommunication, of misunderstanding, and how that unfortunately impacts performance, how we, waste time and opportunities and affect how we actually work together. It's something that I've always felt frustrated, but also as someone who doesn't really stand by things how they are and say, hey, what can we do to help,

Luis:
[7:53] change this and improve those relations? And that's what's really inspiring me now.

Debbie:
[7:58] Let's make it practical for someone hearing about Due for the first time.

Debbie:
[8:03] In simple terms, what is Due and what problem does it solve and how does it work?

Luis:
[8:10] Due helps you prepare for important conversations by understanding the communication preferences and behavioral tendencies of the people involved. It involves rehearsal about the people you're going to speak with, adding an extra layer that usually is not addressed to the ecuation. We help turn behavioral signals into practical guidance, how to approach meeting negotiation, interview, sales conversation, or a working relationship. Ultimately, we give visibility to a dimension of a dynamic between people that is not really taken into consideration. So that's what we're trying to focus on. How do we actually apply this human portion into the whole situation instead of just overthinking and just bypassing this completely? Pay attention to the others. Pay attention to their preferences. And how can you prepare for that interaction up front? If you're going to a meeting, you don't take the meeting to the place, at least if you want that meeting to be productive. Then just, oh, let's get here and explain what this is about. Oh, this is what it's about. Prepare up front.

Luis:
[9:20] So you give it some thought. Why don't we do this for relationships, for those meetings? Add an extra layer of reversing and learning more about the person on the other side. So behavior signals can be practical guidance. And by getting those inputs and adjusting how do we actually communicate is what do is all about. And it's an interesting word that being said, because.

Luis:
[9:51] It comes from the Italian word do it, which is because I set it up with my sister. So it's due. Me and her, we set up our own business. But do it also has due, which is something that is supposed to be happening, supposed to evolve, to be delivered. And this conversation is something that's been due for a long time. And I think it's an interesting connection because it's like the elephant in the room. Something that we're trying to help people to prepare. And as they do, it takes their relationship or the business endeavor to a different level.

Debbie:
[10:29] I like the play of the words Due in Italian and Due. When you first built Due or Due, was it the salesperson trying to close a deal

Debbie:
[10:40] or the manager trying to lead a team? Or was there a need broader than that?

Luis:
[10:46] Adaptive communication's first application was adaptive selling. They understand that if I rehearse about prospecting, it's something that it's really hard. And every insight you get probably will take you closer to closing the deal. So it is the first application. But it's not only that. I see that on many leaderships, especially as you look into peers, where we're not selling to each other. We're just having to work better and reduce friction and be better at our jobs. It's one application. The other one is actually looking, how do you actually, get better with your leaders, understand their position, and how do you actually get better with your team as they understand you better? And there's so many opportunities for miscommunication that every time you can, improve that, it'll apply on how do you relate to boards, how do you actually reach out to people. Some people say that this is great for spouses as well because with your family, you understand their styles and it helps your relationships go better. That's a true application. But in a business environment, it works in many ways, from selling to prospecting to peer relations to leadership relations to team relations. The applications are endless.

Debbie:
[12:10] So let's put ourselves in the shoes of someone using Do. Say, I've got a big meeting tomorrow. Walk me through how I would actually use the platform to prepare for that conversation.

Luis:
[12:23] We begin the methodology with the public display of your communication styles, also known as social media. We're all stowing ourselves there. It provided an environment where we can collect information from others. You can rehearse. So you rehearse about the company. You rehearse about what they're saying. You rehearse about what that person specifically is interested or is really doing. So those are connection opportunities. In here, it begins with the LinkedIn profile.

Luis:
[12:55] Why LinkedIn and not Facebook? Because LinkedIn is more business-oriented. It. Some situations may not provide you full insights on people, but to most, it works fine enough. And then I use this platform to actually gather information and try to provide you some insights about that person. I'll add that to your context, to your contribution. So I'll ask you a question, and say, what can you tell me about these people? You'll say, oh, this is someone I'm prospecting, or this is my box, this is my peers. We get along, we don't get along. So we add the insights that are public with your contributions, and then we provide you an idea as you enter this business situation. So we provide these 26 insights on.

Luis:
[13:46] The other person and what is their tendency to behave. So as you begin by learning about yourself and that is great, knowing the other person is powerful. And that's where we dig deeper. And then the real magic comes when we blend profiles. That's basically how we work. We provide you insights based on your inputs and the ones that we were able to collect. And we provide you with this framework and see this is how you should be preparing for your relationship or for that one on the spot five-minute conversation where your pitch should nail the situation on the head. Otherwise, you may miss the opportunity. So every time there's something high stakes involved, it is where we can actually help.

Debbie:
[14:32] So it's a report that you generate for me based on the public profile of the person that I want to meet, plus the context that I provide enables you to come up with this insightful report that helps me to come prepared for that conversation. And I think this is where the idea of adaptive communication becomes interesting because it suggests that the same message might need to be delivered differently depending on who I'm sitting across from.

Luis:
[15:03] You're absolutely right. The thing is, we can provide you at least with 26 insights before the meeting, the profile, potential behavior, power sources, wear factors, strengths, blind spots, how to cause a good impression, how to build trust, how to do a demo of your product, how to negotiate, how to deal with pricing, how to stimulate action, how to follow up, how to write, how to present a sales proposal, how to discuss pricing. These are 26 insights, and they help you.

Luis:
[15:36] Get to the meeting better prepared instead of coming there in the dark and not knowing at all. And by doing that, you're able to actually adjust how do you actually deliver based on that person's preferences. What I've been experimenting is understanding that the delivery makes a lot of difference. Some people, they're just overwhelmed with information. And if you send them a written report with 25 pages, they get lost. Others prefer, they say, I want 25 pages. Others say, I hate 25 pages. So I developed this audio version, like a podcast, that turns that written report into a conversation between those two. It's like a notebook LLF from Google that you provide our inputs and say, hey, make this a podcast of five minutes. So I did that. But I've added the third person which is the listener and I'm telling the listener the story about that report and that's been quite powerful so it is another way that you can listen to it as you're walking as you're going to the gym as you're exercising and you want to just grab more information so it's a different way to deliver the same content and it's something you can revisit as well it's in your mobile phone you listen to it anytime you need it and I have this friend, who revisits his report. He used to work at this company.

Luis:
[17:04] He was part of the marketing team, and then he was hired 10 years later to become the leader, and he had to overcome their perception of him being a peer and now becoming the leader. So I provided him these insights on how he should prepare and take that into consideration. And he says, I listen to it every week. I revisit when I have a problem, when I want to improve this and that. So those are insights and leaders willing to investigate and dedicate time.

Luis:
[17:34] It is a good source of insights and information.

Debbie:
[17:37] There are a lot of personality tools or tests out there that help to uncover insights into the person. We've all heard of tools like Myers-Briggs DISC or the Enneagram. If someone has already used those, why would they need DU and what does DU offer that those tools may miss?

Luis:
[17:59] So these provide great insights on self-awareness, on understanding yourself better. But probably that's one of the problems also with all of these tools. This was developed by a psychology professor in Harvard back in 1928. He realized that people had their own differences and tendencies. But until the 1950s as businesses started to flourish and to evolve they were more dependent on people and then.

Luis:
[18:33] These psychologists say, hey, we should develop a test. And those tests will help us understand people better and how do they work together. So, especially as you step into a leadership position, you will have to understand yourself better and then see the impact of yourself on others, on how you can actually inspire or lead them in some situations. And all of those tools, they're really great insight on everyone. But DISC is the only one That actually directs this towards behavioral tendencies. And probably that's where this analysis is more powerful to this situation instead of the others. It's not just about knowing yourself better. How do we blend these together? So if I ask, given those tendencies and the other person's tendencies, what's the situation we are about to enter and what should we do with that information?

Luis:
[19:29] And prompting, it makes a lot of difference. So asking the right questions with those inputs, that's the reason why we try to build the bridge and still land the gap between all those insights. There are so many insights. And how do we actually deploy them to what we're about to enter? What do we want? We want to be successful in prospecting. We want to be successful in an interview. We want to be successful with peer relations. That context, that's where we were trying to build a gap. So that's how we bring values, having context and understanding better what is at stake. It makes all the difference.

Debbie:
[20:10] So your framework draws on established models like DISC for behavior and crystal modes for the AI read on someone's public profile. As you said, what really sets dual-part is how you interpret context. So what does that mean in practice? Why is understanding context harder than simply just putting someone into a category?

Luis:
[20:35] It makes all the difference. The behavior data is input, but context will determine what we do with it. All these tools around, we can help you deploy, analyze in a relationship, not just individuals. Labeling is always something that worries me the most, because I don't think we are that predictable. Our insights aim at helping you increase the observation, be more curious about the other person, and learn from that as you try to build a long-lasting relationship. With people we know, we already know how to re-preach that person. What do you do when you don't actually know the person? And you want to do it. That's where we can help.

Debbie:
[21:16] I think the better we become at identifying someone's communication style, there is a risk that, as you said, labeling them and start listening less. So how do you guard against that?

Luis:
[21:29] The thing is, we don't want you to listen less. We want to raise awareness of a different experience. Dimension that probably you were not paying attention. You were not really realizing how important and critical and risky it is by not taking that into consideration. And to me, it always puzzles me when I think about how important the other person is for us and how easily we can simply.

Luis:
[22:00] Bypass that political importance and simply go straight to the point what we want to say, how we want that person to behave. Yesterday, I was discussing this with somebody who was trying to approach others via LinkedIn. And they were saying, I send them invites, they don't reply. So what are you bringing to the table? Are you considering their preferences? Are you looking into what their interest is, what they need from you? And as we try to move away from the shortcuts, from this idea that technology helps us do it all by automatic way. Every day, you're getting poor prospecting over your channels. Labeling can put you in focusing too much on the shortcut, and you're not really being interested and learning about the other person. So take that into consideration. Don't think that the other person can be defined by you and say, oh, this is how that person can be like that. But test it. Learn about it. Be curious in what are their interests. And probably this will put you in a different position. So we always say careful with that. And that's one of the reasons about not over-relying on AI, for instance, about reading someone and trying to understand what's going on.

Debbie:
[23:18] We all want to communicate effectively, but we also don't want to feel like we're putting on a different version of ourselves just to suit every person we meet. So where do you draw the line between adapting how we communicate and losing your own authenticity? So how does do help people stay true to themselves while still meeting the other person where they are?

Luis:
[23:45] It is about adaptation and authenticity. What we pledge is you adapt the interface, not the substance. You continue being who you are. You're just being mindful of the other person, and you're adjusting. We do this every single day. We already do this intuitively with the people we know. What we want to do is help you prepare before familiarity becomes knowledge. You preserve your values. You're not becoming somebody else. Your intentions, the message remains yours. But the pace, the amount of detail, the sequencing, the examples, the framing, everything can be adjusted. So it's not about losing authenticity. It's just about adjusting the delivery

Luis:
[24:31] so it'll get better in the other side, which is the most important one.

Debbie:
[24:37] You've taken Due out of theory and tested it in real-world situations. Some of your cases are about one-on-one relationships. Others involve teams and company-wide change. At what point does you stop being that one conversation and start helping with the bigger picture?

Luis:
[24:57] This week, we bypassed the 100 real-life examples that we've been testing the model, and it never ceases to amaze me. Some people just want to get to know themselves better, and that's enough. But as they give the context where this can actually help, it is amazing. One example of the application of adaptive communication is for better preparations for decisive interviews. Most of the time, those qualified professionals arrive at an important interview without sufficient reading of the style of who's on the other side. And when that preparation improves, the conversation reaches another level. A real example would be an executive who had already participated in several hiring processes, and she realized that this time she went better prepared. The interview flowed with more precision, with less effort, and greater control of the conversation, with a clearly superior outcome to the previous experiences.

Luis:
[25:53] Another example is more productive conversations with leaders, because the problem isn't really always the content. Often it's how the conversation is framed, the positioning, how the value is perceived by those people. A friend of mine is a senior executive. He noticed that his conversations with leaders were unproductive, despite the consistency of what he delivered. But by adjusting his language, the positioning and the way he presented his contributions, reduce friction and strengthen the perceived value of his work. And if you're speaking with the board, with your boss, we'll provide you resources for that specific project. It makes all the difference.

Debbie:
[26:35] You've tested Due across more than 80 applications in both Brazil and the U.S. What's the biggest thing that surprised you in that testing environment?

Luis:
[26:45] There's a saying that as a service provider, you can always be as good as your client lets you. So by betting, stigmatization is something complicated. People get very passionate, about the tools or their beliefs. And some people love this, some others hate it. And if you bring the word to the table, it's gone. So by betting, being able to actually build trust and discussed in a more open way, to me, it's both inspiring and frustrating. As I engage with leaders or HR people who are not that open, somehow they become so, strict and results-oriented that they don't keep their minds and hearts open to a different approach to look at the situation and say, ah, I was...

Luis:
[27:41] Pinpointing that to attitude, and it's instead due to reason of lack of communication alignment. When it happens, it is mind-blowing. There's this business leader we interviewed a few weeks ago, Lillian, and Lillian got what do is about. And it was amazing because we started discussing and taking the thing in a different level, and that is so powerful. And when it happens, when that person sees something in you, on your value proposition, and you start building together, that is beautiful. You see the potential coming to fruition and how that thing will probably lead into places that you wouldn't be alone. And like you're doing with yourself, you have your own platform. You're providing me space, asking me great questions, and we're interacting and bringing value to the others who will actually listen to this. And I can't really tell how much this touches my heart as I look at the potential of human interaction and collaboration.

Debbie:
[28:39] Sometimes reading a person or even reading the room as a human being can be unpredictable.

Debbie:
[28:45] How does it become more tricky when you're actually putting it all together as an actual AI product like do?

Luis:
[28:55] The hardest part is dealing with uncertainty. There's potential, but there's no certainty. Humans are contextual. We are inconsistent. We are adaptive. Our talents and tendencies can shift. right? So we cannot really turn probability and behavioral signals into deterministic moments. This is what is going to happen. So we have to take that into consideration. Be careful, be respectful of the other person and your approach, and see how we can actually produce useful guidance. We do have, The learning and the belief and the power of the system, the method, but we also have to pay attention and treat that every case as a single one. So it's not something that is delivered without the human portion of it. I don't really believe that this will actually work just by providing you this bot that will chat with you and provide you everything. So I do believe that it's important that I'm in the evacuation and that you are in the evacuation and we're, trying to solve this problem together instead of just trying to deliver something that you hit the button and it's there, right? It's not like that.

Debbie:
[30:08] In your own simple words, what's adaptive communication that Due brings about?

Luis:
[30:14] The power of adaptive, as it says, is how do you actually consider the jewel that you have, which is your value proposition, your business idea, your best fit, the way you work, the way you behave, and you adapt the delivery of that, paying attention in the preferences of the other person on the other side. And that is for sales it's been invented back in the early 1990s they realized that as they were prospecting.

Luis:
[30:47] As they shifted, the way they delivered, it made all the difference. But it shouldn't be based on instinct, based on having a fixed skin and saying, I'm feeling, I know how to do it. And you can do it by luck, right? You can walk into this room and do your pitch and hope for the best. Or you could be doing your research before that meeting and then you delivered in a more sharp way instead of just hoping for the best. And that's what the adaptive brings to the table. And it can be selling. It can be just communicating and interacting. You adapt. You tell different stories in a different way. When you're speaking to a lawyer, you adapt what you say to that person. When you're speaking to an engineer, you adjust how you say you don't speak to them in a different way. Why do we forget about this when we actually engage into business relations? We couldn't. The ultimate goal is to generate better outcomes. Better communication leads to better results, removes friction, helps us bypass the misunderstandings, because ultimately all we want is the better.

Debbie:
[31:56] And communication is very fluid. The right framing, the right tonality, and the right delivery makes all the difference. And having that context that your brain would do, it makes the world of difference. Nowadays, Luis, what's that one question you ask yourself before walking into any high-stakes conversation or situations?

Luis:
[32:19] It never ceases to amaze me that whenever I share this response with others, they look and say, wow, I wasn't thinking about that. Right. The question is simple. What does the other person on the other side need from me from this conversation to work? And it is putting them in the first place instead of me saying, this is what I want to say. So how can I help them understand better or feed the benefit and not expect them to build the connection and listen to all of my product descriptions and then say, oh, I see. That will help me do that and that. People don't really have the time. If you take that into consideration and understand that this is just a manifestation of me realizing how important you are and how your moves will make all the difference to me. So I'll help you make the move instead of hoping for the best that you make the connections. It's all about you. It's not about me. Your success is mine. That's ultimately it. It's all about service providing, right?

Debbie:
[33:25] Now, if you can leave our listeners with one shift in the way they approach an important conversation, what would you want them to do differently tomorrow?

Luis:
[33:35] I think the critical repositioning that is expected from you is not taking you, into that much into consideration, of course, that your objectives and needs and goals are there. But if you don't try to transfer that responsibility to the other person and do the opposite, it's trying to get their ultimate goals and needs and objectives into your consideration and say, how can I help, that person or that business reach their objectives? That is just amazing. We've seen bad prospecting and bad service providing and bad sales pitches all over. Learn from those. And as you do your own business, You try to deliver better and do something. Just pay attention. And remember what leaders are doing and say, I could do different and better, and I'll make that into my own differential and how that is going to matter. To me, this is so important. It is quite powerful as it can be your way to actually find your spot. And people will look at you. I don't know what it is about that person, but. I like talking with them. I like engaging with them. I like giving them business because there's something to it. Of course, you're paying attention to the human side of the other person.

Debbie:
[34:57] We spend a lot of time about what we want to say and perhaps not enough time thinking how the other person is actually going to receive it. So that simple shift from preparing not only your message to preparing for the person on the other side can change the entire conversation.

Luis:
[35:16] That's probably one of the powerful things that we have, Debbie. As you realize that there are better tools these days, it's not about black magic. It's not about looking to the sky and saying, provide me insights. There's data. There's information in it. All we need is discipline, of course. But once you learn about this, it stays with you. And as it stays with you, you never approach any single meeting without being prepared up front. And as you do, it's better for everyone, including yourself.

Debbie:
[35:47] Luis, thank you for your time and for giving us a different way to think about communication. For those who want to learn more about Due, where can they find you, Luis?

Luis:
[35:57] Well, you can look me up on LinkedIn. My last name is complicated for those who don't speak English. It's Pedro Ferreira. You may be hard, but if you go to duet.net.br, there's information in English and Portuguese. And it's going to be a pleasure and an honor to engage with your audience. Thank you for the opportunity. I loved it.

Debbie:
[36:18] Thank you Luis. So that's it for this episode of Skin in the Game. If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with someone who's got a big conversation coming up and they'll thank you for it. I'm Debbie Go and I'll see you next time.