Debbie:
[0:02] Welcome back to Skin in a Game. Today, I'm joined by someone whose work sits

Debbie:
[0:06] at the intersection of innovation, well-being, and creativity, Lillian Sanada. Lillian is the founder of Sanada Labs, where she builds AI-powered solutions designed to fit into real people's lives. She is also the founder of DanceFloor, a high-tech dance studio in Sao Paulo that combines music, movement, and an emotions dashboard to help people improve their physical, emotional, and social well-being. In this conversation, we'll explore what it's like to move from a successful corporate career, what human-centered innovation looks like when it's more than just a buzzword, and why dancing, yes, dancing, might be one of the most powerful antidotes to emotional exhaustion. Lillian, thank you so much for joining me. I'm really looking forward to sharing your story.

Lilian:
[1:03] Thank you, Debbie, for having me here. It's great really to be here. And I'm excited for our conversation today.

Debbie:
[1:10] Ilian, most people your age are still climbing the corporate ladder, but you chose to step out of it. What do you think people most often get wrong about why someone makes a move like that?

Lilian:
[1:23] That's a good question. I don't believe that I jump off the corporate ladder. I designed the bridge to my next chapter. This is what I did. I think people often assume that leaving the corporate means that you are running away from something, and that wasn't my story. So I loved my career at SAP and IBM. I learned from incredible leaders. I worked with amazing clients. I had amazing opportunities. But four years or so before I actually left, I started applying the design thinking principles to my own life. So to treat my future like an innovation project, and there was one thing missing from my career, and that was building something without a big logo. By the time I left, I wasn't jumping off the window. When I decided to design this next chapter, that's where dance floor and Sanada Labs' ideas emerge from that process. So I was not running away from the corporate, but I was building towards something. That's what I did.

Debbie:
[2:34] I like what you said about building towards your next journey. You also talked about shedding the identity of Lillian because you stepped away from SAP and IBM to build your own future. Who did you find underneath all those titles and labels especially those we held in the corporate world

Lilian:
[2:56] Yeah I'd say then at first it was uncomfortable because for over 20 years people introduced me as Lillian from SAP, Lillian from IBM I'm incredible grateful for everything I learned there but, I had to ask myself different questions. Who am I when there is no brand behind me? That's the point, né? Whether I was inside a global company or building my own business, what excites me is bringing ideas to life. So the companies changed, but my purpose didn't.

Lilian:
[3:31] So 20 months later, left in the corporate world, I can say this in a clear way.

Debbie:
[3:37] You talked about design thinking, that human-centered design. Has become one of those phrases we hear everywhere in tech nowadays. Yet so much of that gets built, but it still feels cold or impersonal. In your view, has the term become just a buzzword or does it really carry real meaning?

Lilian:
[3:58] I believe that human-centered design is more relevant than ever. That's the point. The problem is that we become obsessive with the technology itself instead of the human behavior. and this is a trap. So every technology wave starts with features and ends up with adoption. So I've been working, with technology for over 20 years, and I've seen the same pattern repeat itself with every innovation wave. ERP systems, then BI, then apps, and now AI. So we become fascinated by what the technology can do, but technology only creates value when people actually use it. That's the problem. So I've been companies investing millions in amazing systems that fail to deliver the expected impact. So human-centered design, I think that reminds us that innovation is not about building smarter technology. It's about understanding people well enough to design solutions that become part of their routine. That's the point. So technology evolves incredibly fast, but human nature changes much more slowly. So tech creates opportunities, adoption creates value.

Debbie:
[5:16] Zaneda Lab is built on one core belief. Solutions have to fit real life or they fail. But before you spend a year building something, so how do you actually test whether it fits?

Debbie:
[5:29] What does that look like in practice?

Lilian:
[5:32] Debbie, what we do is that we don't start by validating solutions. We start by challenging our solutions. And before we build anything, we try to understand whether we are solving the right problem. And a good example was a project we developed with Vox2Go. So Vox2Go is an AI-powered platform built for business communication. It was developed by our colleague, role lead, Guilherme Scarins. And before designing the product itself, we spent months talking to small business owners. And observing how they communicated with their customers. So we discovered that most of them had incredible stories behind their business, a founder's journey, family legacy, you know, and years of experience. But they struggled to explain why someone should choose them. And that was the problem. So that insight completely changed how we approach the product. So the purpose of this process, of the discovery process, is to step outside that bubble that we are living in and let the market challenge our assumptions before we invest more building something. And that's how we reduce uncertainty in innovation in a broad perspective.

Debbie:
[6:55] You worked with both entrepreneurs building something from scratch and entrepreneurs trying to create change inside large organizations. Those are very different environments. How does your approach change and what does success look like for each of these scenarios?

Lilian:
[7:13] Both entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs are dealing with uncertainty, right? So, the constraints are different, but the mindset is the same, completely the same. Besides, they work in very different environments. For entrepreneurs, success might be validating a business model or finding the first paying customer. For an entrepreneur, it might be getting leadership buying. But in most cases, success is not about having the certainty. It's about having enough evidence to move forward with confidence. So they are quite similar, you know, besides having a completely different environment. And my job is to reduce uncertainty in both cases.

Debbie:
[7:57] One thing that's fascinating is that despite all the AI and innovation work you do today, another thread has quietly run through your entire life, which is dance. Has dance always been a constant or was there a period when life got busy and you walked away from it and if so what brought you back

Lilian:
[8:20] I never stopped loving dance but i'd say that i stopped making room for it this has been part of my life since i was eight years old but like many people life became busy. I was building my career, raising my daughters, traveling, leading global innovation projects, then moving to the background. And what happened? I completely lost my source of energy and my productivity began to drop. And it took some time for me to admit that I was delivering less, as I used to work for high-pressure and high-performance teams. There are a lot of people that used to dance, paint, or sing, or play an instrument, and this is the most important source of energy. And then when life simply took over, that's why we understand how important is taking care of this source of energy. And then I understood that dance floor was not about just dance, the dance studio that I was building was not just about dance, but was about helping people reconnecting with themselves. This is something that we need to take care of and be mindful about it.

Debbie:
[9:43] I like what you said about dance being your source of energy. Is that why you founded Dance Floor, which is a high-tech dance studio built around emotional health? And I can see the passion behind it, but maybe can you tell us where did that idea come from?

Lilian:
[10:02] I love to dance, but Dance Floor was not born from my passion to dance. It was born from a question about human behavior. So I recognize a behavioral pattern. The real challenge is making well-being fit in our real life. So that's the problem that we are facing nowadays, and we need to find a solution for that. So at the dance floor, we designed the entire experience to reduce friction and increase consistency. It's funny to see that people are trying to take care of themselves but life just gets in the way, so at the dance board we focus on reducing the barriers so there's no judgment of family or music a welcome community and later the technology to help people understand their emotional progress, is really about helping people to build a sustainable road and we used to say that done is better than well done or done is better than perfect. And the dance in the studio, this is the only way that we used to make it happen. If you are not able to make it in time for the ballet classes, you can go for a yoga class or hip hop classes, you know, you can go for it. And dancers in the studio can take classes every day across any discipline. So that's our mindset over there.

Debbie:
[11:26] When people think about dance, they think of a workout. But you've designed classes quite uniquely. It feels more like a party, as you said, no judgment. So what made you feel

Debbie:
[11:36] that this format was missing from the world? Was there a gap in the market at that time?

Lilian:
[11:42] I think so, because we were not designing dance classes, but we designed an environment where adults feel safe to come back. So people don't come back because of their choreography, they come back because of how they feel. So we designed the eye experience to reduce fear and increase that consistency that we have been talking about. it. So many people walk into the dance studio thinking, I'm too old, I have two left feet, or everyone will be better than me. So instead of asking how do we teach dance, we ask a different question, how we make people feel comfortable enough to walk through the door and come back next week. So that's why we choose to use familiar songs, a welcoming atmosphere in a community where nobody is trying to impress anyone. We want the class to feel like a celebration not a performance, because when people feel they belong, they stop worrying about how they look, and start enjoying how they feel and that's when the real transformation begins. So it's much more a celebration party than a dance class itself, a technical dance class itself. Although people really learn to this and as well, very well.

Debbie:
[13:02] I like that because it feels like a party, a celebration, so you don't feel the pressure to perform. And Lillian, I know your dance floor has something called an emotion dashboard, which is an AI that tracks a dancer's emotional state in real time. I find that real fascinating.

Debbie:
[13:20] Can you walk me through how that actually works?

Lilian:
[13:23] Before I explain technology itself, I'd like to explain to you why we built it. So we often see studies showing that people haven't done well-being activities after just three or four months, not because they're not working, but because emotional progress and improvements are difficult to notice. So people assume that nothing is changing in this talk, you know. So our emotions dashboard uses a scientifically validated mood assessment to help people track how they are feeling over time. So then AI analyzes those patterns and provides a personalized insights and recommends actions based on their emotional state. So the goal is not to diagnose people, but to create a personalized well-being journey. So this is the main goal and the main idea of the technology inside the dance studio and behind the dance experiences that we design.

Debbie:
[14:28] I like the idea of tracking your emotional well-being over time. And when you say personalized, I'm just thinking out loud since I haven't seen the emotion dashboard. Does it, for example, tell you that you dance a different way or you dance a more upbeat way?

Lilian:
[14:42] That's a good question. Well-being can be in many places, you know. For me, it's like dancing. For you, it's just walking or reading. So when we start sharing with this emotions dashboard and with Emotiva, which is the conventional AI that we have inside our ad, about my profile, about my preferences, about my life, and when we start discussing about it, And it's easy to see that we can, of course, put activities like running, dancing, playing an instrument in my well-being journey. But I can do, you know, just a 10-minute meditations or just walking for a while. So this is the experience.

Lilian:
[15:31] And a completely well-being journey that we are able to help people design for themselves, giving insights, you know? So before we start talking about this and planning this podcast, I was traveling to Rio. I was there launching the Emotiva, which is the new version of the Emotional Dashboards on the Web Summit. And then I was talking to Emotiva and said, please help me because this week I won't be able to make my ballet classes because I'm still here. So please cancel and find another slot in my agenda to put a ballet classes or yoga classes or something like this. And she said, okay, I'm here for you and I'm doing for this now. But you know what? You are in a beautiful city. Why not, you know, just walk in 10 minutes on the beach? Or if you want to, I can find ballet classes nearby to you. So that's the main purpose of this technology.

Debbie:
[16:32] That's a really nice way to track your emotional well-being and the activity that actually aligns with your well-being.

Debbie:
[16:41] Lillian, you've also brought dance floor into workplaces. What happens when a boardroom full of executives starts dancing together? What's the energy like?

Lilian:
[16:53] A lot of fun, Debbie.

Lilian:
[16:57] A lot of fun. When people dance together, they stop seeing titles, you know, and start seeing each other as human beings. That's the point. So that's where trust begins. And when we are in a complex environment, you know, like we have in big companies that we must innovate, trustship is fundamental for innovation. And the first part here is the vulnerability, not dancing. That's the point. So people walk into the room as CEOs, as directors, as managers, and they are a little uncomfortable, I would say, of course. But then something shifts. And so they start laughing, helping each other and moving together. And research shows that moving together can strengthen trust, social connection and even creativity. So we've seen exactly that in our workshops. The conversations after the dance are completely different from the conversations before that. So dance is able to shift the mindset of the people and make the brains light up. So this is very cool. That's why we see dance not as an entertainment in the workplace, but something that's really helpful for daily activities and the daily routine.

Lilian:
[18:21] I see it as a powerful way to build the psychological safety, relationships, and remind people that behind every job title, it's a person.

Debbie:
[18:30] I've seen that energy when you presented at the Stanford GSB Lead Me2We event to leaders from all over the world. I've seen them in the room all dancing together with happy faces. For you, what's that one question that kept coming up again and again, especially in those forums, no matter what country or industry,

Debbie:
[18:51] what's that one question that comes up for you?

Lilian:
[18:55] When we are talking to leaders like this, they always have a sense of purpose, you know, and most of the time they are high performers and high performers often mistake exhaustion for commitment. When quite often, society is asking for help with a weakness. We used to tell ourselves it's just a busy week, a busy month, and then a busy year, you know. But no matter where they come from, leaders were asking the same questions. How do I build something meaningful without sacrificing myself? So, I would say that they won't ask how do I find my purpose. Most of them already had a sense of purpose. The real question was, how do I turn purpose into something sustainable? How do I create impact without burning out? And that was exactly what my talk was about. I shared my own journey from the corporate career to building Salanda Labs and dance floor and how I prototyped that transition instead of making a leap of faith, That's why the conversation resonates. So purpose inspires people, Debbie, but purpose alone is not enough. We also need to have a business model, a discipline, and the courage to experiment something new.

Debbie:
[20:17] And you've talked about watching brilliant, talented people struggle in silence with emotional exhaustion. And I've seen it also in my career.

Debbie:
[20:28] What do you think stops most people from admitting it even to themselves?

Lilian:
[20:34] I think that emotional exhaustion doesn't arrive overnight. I know it because I live it myself. I loved my job. I had an amazing team and a successful career, but I was spending four hours in traffic. My mind never switched off and I had stopped making time for the things that kept me emotionally healthy. In my case, it was dancing. And the hardest part wasn't admitting to other people. It was admitting to myself. Today, I believe that the emotional well-being is not about waiting until something breaks. But it's about noticing that small signals, before they become a crisis, is not a weakness problem. You know, it's a balance problem. And we must take care of it.

Debbie:
[21:23] That's really insightful, that it's more a balance rather than a weakness. And to know the signals before it actually happens. Lillian, you've redesigned your career, your identity, and your relationship with creativity. What's the one thing you know now that you wish the younger Lillian, the one that was just starting out at IBM, could have learned or heard?

Lilian:
[21:49] I love it, this question.

Lilian:
[21:52] I say that nothing, nothing was wasted. So every chapter prepared me for the next one. So my career, our career is not a straight line. It's a collection of experiences that eventually make perfect sense. So I'd say, Lilian, please don't rush to have everything figured out. You know, you should do this. So be patient. And every experience becomes useful, even if you don't see it at that time. So curiosity is a better guide than certainty. I say something like this.

Debbie:
[22:31] Lilian, thank you so much for joining me. You've given us a rear window in what it really takes to redefine success on your own terms. I think more importantly, you reminded us that the most meaningful innovation isn't just what we build. It's also about how we help people feel through technology, creativity, and dance. You've shown us that we can create healthier lives, stronger workplaces, and deeper human connections. If you'd like to follow Lillian's work, you can find her on LinkedIn and explore what she's doing at Sonata Labs and Dance Floor. We'll link everything in the show. Lillian, thank you so much.

Lilian:
[23:11] Thank you, Debbie, for having me here. So it was a great conversation.

Debbie:
[23:16] Thank you for listening to Skin in the Game. If you've enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the podcast. Until next time, take care of your mind and your body.