Ping Yan:

[0:02] I would say adaptability is what matters most over time. Because I think resilience will help us stay in the game. And discipline will help us to stay focused. But adaptability is what allows us to move forward. Just like in the game, sometimes the rules keep changing. Especially in the global business, manufacturing, supply chain, nothing stays the same for long.

Debbie:

[0:28] Welcome to Skin in the Game. I'm your host, Debbie Go. My guest today, Ping Yan spent the first part of her career as a data architect. In 1998, she stepped away from that world to build something entirely different, a bridge between manufacturing in China and the consumer market in the U.S. Today, as the founder of ABS International and CEO of EverGrace Home, she oversees the entire journey of a product, from the factory floor in Shanghai to the shelves of major U.S. retailers. We're going to discuss her journey from data architect to the realities of managing international operations and the discipline it takes to consistently evolve a business in such a fast-moving market. Ping, welcome to the show, and I know it's your birthday today.

Ping Yan:

[1:21] Thank you so much, Debbie. This is very special. Today, no birthday party. It's a special time with you, Debbie. We're talking about my journey, my life journey, and my career journey. I'm so honored to be with you.

Debbie:

[1:35] Thank you, Ping. You're such a lovely person, and thank you for spending the time with me on your special day. We'll start with understanding your journey. When you started your career in data architect and project management, in 1998, you pivoted to found ABS International, entering that completely different world of textiles and global trade. What was the bet you were making on yourself back then?

Ping Yan:

[2:03] Well, thank you, Debbie. I'm so excited. Today is my birthday, looking through my life, my career. You know, looking back, the biggest bet I made, I think it wasn't on the industry. It was personally on myself. So as I mentioned, I start in their high-tech background as their principal data architecture engineering. It was a very stable path. So I know what's going to be in my ladder to the next level. So I can tell my future career in that technology industry. However, I choose to walk away from it, step into the global trade and manufacturing.

Ping Yan:

[2:45] So it will be different because my background is different. I don't have a roadmap, so I'm facing the uncertainty. I believe at the time it was simple.

Ping Yan:

[2:57] I know I need to have confidence. I needed to learn fast. So if I learn fast, stay in the game longer enough, I think I can eventually find a way to build myself in this field. And then the real belief for me was it is also cost because you mentioned what do I give up? I gave up stability. I gave up predictability. I don't know what could be, you know, like every day in the future. And also give up my comfort of knowing what comes next. And the most important thing at the early years I have to give up the time to constantly learning, working under tremendous high pressure because that's what I'm choosing, that uncertainty. There's no guarantee, no commitment. So my takeaway is over this 20 years, you know, I'm building the ABS company. This is a journey. It's the constant change. So for me, I learned about their global manufacturing. And I learned how to navigate in the uncertainty. But over time, I realized something very important is the resilience that I've been talking about through the leadership. That's very important. It is built through.

Ping Yan:

[4:23] Stay in the game. You don't give up. You continue to build on, facing the new challenges, and then move on. So bring the value, stay agile, and continue to learn. That's what keeps me moving forward.

Debbie:

[4:38] Yeah. So you mentioned learning fast. And I can imagine, Ping, that it took a lot of courage within yourself to step out of your comfort zone. Take me back to those first few years of running ABS. What's one lesson from that chapter that you still find yourself using when you lead today?

Ping Yan:

[4:56] This is a very great reflection. I think I look back at my younger self. In the early years when I built ABS, I thought leadership means having the right answer. I feel, oh, I am responsible for solving everything. That's why I was under pressure every day. So making the decision, fixing the problem, try to control the outcomes. So I just like a day and night watching and talking to the customer. But over the time, I realized something very important.

Ping Yan:

[5:30] I don't need to know every answer. It's about asking the right question and get people who are good in the field and learning from their expertise. So I think that's still I would be learning on the leadership. So trying to see how we're solving the problem. Earlier stage, we always try to rush into solving problem. But nowadays, I learned understanding first. understanding what is really happening what is a root cause root cause is so important because a lot of time the problem is not really technical in the computer world we talk about technical but in the traditional business it's also technical you know like how the fabric engineering together so mostly time is technical it's about human being how we communicate misunderstanding it's about lack of clarity We avoid people, you know, conflict. So sometimes we lost the trust. So the lesson I still learning today is don't rush to solve problems.

Ping Yan:

[6:40] Understanding it, finding it, getting the people to evolve, and then building the skill. What I'm doing is called SOP. It's a simple thing, you know, simple but basic principle. And then building the system later. And then building the culture and the trust with people and create a value.

Debbie:

[7:00] Being a leader has the balance of both the hard skills and the soft skills. Clearly, Ping, you have both. You describe yourself, your style as a blend of quiet strength, long-term thinking, and leadership with heart. So those are very powerful intentional qualities. Was this a conscious strategy or did it grow naturally from your own experiences?

Ping Yan:

[7:25] This is a very thoughtful question, Debbie. I like it. If I look back, I don't think I consciously designed my leadership style. To be honest to you, I come to the U.S. to realize my dream. I want to be a great leader. But that time, over 35 years ago, I don't know what really means. But in my heart, I try to be a good leader. So through the years of experience, it grows over time. As experience is through the challenges I'm facing, and sometimes it's through my mistakes I make. In the early years, like many funders, I was focused on execution, solving the problem, and then trying to make a decision and pushing things to move forward. And then... My business growing up, then over time, I realized the leadership is not just about driving the result. It's about how we show up for people. So quiet experience comes from, quiet strength, I think, comes from the experience. You go through enough uncertainty that you learned not every situation, we have a really strong reaction so we.

Ping Yan:

[8:47] Sometimes we need the stability, and also we need to calmly make a decision. So then to the end of the day, we need to create more trust than just intensity. So I think it's through the long-term thinking, building the business over like 20 plus years, especially in global manufacturing. So I don't think I can win in one season. It's sustainable. I went working with many orders.

Ping Yan:

[9:20] Many customers, and then make sure I guide the team, you know, staying consistent, build a good relationship with customers in their long-term way. For example, Debbie, right now, the royal price is going up so dramatically, right? So we are making the program with Walmart, Costco, two years now. How do we hold our cost? like, oh, everything changing. I can just quickly adjust it and changing the price. No, I cannot do that. So most thing is that I cannot be sleepless, you know. I have to build my mindset. Leading with holding things together. So that's what I mean to long-term thinking. The other part is leading with heart. I love to communicate with people. I love working with people.

Ping Yan:

[10:11] So beyond every business, all of challenging to the end of the day is your people. How people can cope together with this pressure. So we need to work together to motivate ourselves and understand what is the concern and grow together. So I would say leadership style was not something I really planned. It was constantly through my learning experience and through the challenges I'm facing and shaped by my journey.

Debbie:

[10:43] You're right. Leadership evolves as you grow within that role. I'm also curious, Ping, when you describe yourself having quiet strength, I think this is rare because in competitive business environments, some people can mistake being quiet for a lack of fire or passion. Have you ever had to intentionally turn up the volume to prove your resolve or has the quiet approach always won the rule for you?

Ping Yan:

[11:13] Say always, but it doesn't need a quiet strength because to be honest to you, we are losing the money now, like all the things, right easy way i would just talking to the buyer talking to the program say hey you know i cannot do it and then what consequence should go they're gonna goes to their consumer cannot accepting retailer cannot increasing their retailer price because the consumer won't take it so the client strength for me like sometimes i really i cannot hold it it's like every day i was you know on that so i will try to say what else how much we can do what else we can do so i think it won't always winning but it's helped me to do the planning in the long term when we are planning things fluctuating a lot of sacked on the cost and then we also need thinking about to our production also. So quite strongly require me to planning ahead and to continue build up my strategic thinking.

Debbie:

[12:19] Makes sense. Your business operates across markets, cultures, and expectations. You know, you have a China-based manufacturing, a Shanghai headquarters, and a customer-facing team in the U.S. In your opinion, where do cross-border businesses most often break down? Is it communication, speed, or misaligned expectations?

Ping Yan:

[12:41] I would say both of them so important. This is a hard question because it all matters.

Debbie:

[12:49] You know.

Ping Yan:

[12:49] But I will say adaptability is what matters most over time. Because I think resilience will help us stay in the game. And discipline will help us to stay focused. But adaptability is what allowed us to move forward. Just like in the game, sometimes the rules keep changing, especially in the global business. Manufacturing, supply chain, nothing stays the same for long. The policy changing, tariffs with things, pricing changing, labor things, and then steam line, the whole supply chain is so long. So, yeah. Everything shipped, such as market, cost, and even customer experience involved. I remember, Debbie, when we started our business 20 years ago, it's one order you can run like three, four years. And then every year we know the order is forecast. We can follow that and do exactly the same thing. But nowadays, it's not like every order, it's only one order, the next things will be changing. So it's not just cannot rely on the resilience, how we endure, you know.

Ping Yan:

[14:05] Also, we cannot just rely on the discipline because what if we go the wrong direction? So I think adaptability has allowed us to adjust and quickly react.

Ping Yan:

[14:18] Every retailer says how you quickly make their shipment. So I think that's very important, learning on that adaptability.

Debbie:

[14:27] Yeah, you're right. Being able to turn around fast, especially with the customer's request. You're also the CEO of EverGrace Home, which works with brands like Danskin. How is leading EverGrace different from leading ABS? And do you ever find yourself using something you learn at one to help with the other? You know, how does it complement each other?

Ping Yan:

[14:51] Definitely. Well, let me tell you first, ABS stands for Always Better Service. That's how we started. Oh, I didn't know that. Always better service. So when we started a company, we have that. They're quite different to how they operate.

Ping Yan:

[15:09] For example, ABS is more rooted in the global manufacturing supply chain. It's about execution, operational discipline, and how we're managing complex cross-market execution orders. So mostly we deal with timeline, cost structure, and quality. So everything has to work together. So that's the ABS responsibility. So leadership, I would say in ABS, much more about how we're building a good system, ensure alignment, and the driving consistency. EverGrace is different. EverGrace is our brand. So it's more on brand identity and then goes to our consumer in the creativity part. EverGrace is about our product identity. What is the consumer experience? And then how can we create something responsible for people who love their home? How to create a space using our product, connect them, and to tell the story? So the leadership style in EverGrace requires flexibility, openness, looking at something new. It's more space for creativity. if they'll.

Ping Yan:

[16:28] The lesson for me, you know, like we're needed to connect together. We bring ABS, always better service with structure, discipline, scalability into EverGrace. And from EverGrace, we build creativity, consumer experience and agility back into ABS. I will say the leadership is not one style, but they're cohesive together to meet each other. Overall, they have both things, clarity of purpose, strong culture, and ability to learn and evolve together.

Debbie:

[17:03] I do see the vertical integration from the manufacturing all the way to the brand promise that you deliver to EverGrace. From the outside, home textiles look like a beautiful category. But inside, as you mentioned, you're managing design, quality control, and manufacturing. Where do customers or partners most underestimate what is actually taking place to deliver on that brand promise?

Ping Yan:

[17:31] The customer is always asking, we want to understand what's their whole collection we want to be. So when we do our product, we always want to make sure we do the whole collection. That's very important for us to starting to design, concept, the trend, and then making the sample. It's a very long process. At the end of the day, we need to look into the consumer what they need and how we provide the best value with the best cost, with the best cost. Services to them.

Debbie:

[18:09] How do you strike the balance between creative vision and, of course, the demands of bringing down the cost and global trade?

Ping Yan:

[18:17] I would say, as I mentioned earlier about EverGrace and ABS, the different thing is they have a different perspective. With EverGrace, we are always trying to do the design. We want to bring everything new to the market. And just like a customer, they come to your showroom, they want to see something. If it's everything repetitively, it's the same.

Ping Yan:

[18:41] They're going to walk away. So for every season, we have built up our innovation together, try to bring the newest come to life to share with them. And then with some innovative things and bring all value and then to serving the consumer part. In the meantime, if something too beautiful, only look, but you don't have the competitive cost, you're also losing the game. So that's very important. It's kind of a balance. We have to, looking ahead about the trend, the color, the pattern, with the different technique. But in the meantime, we're also considering the cost, execution, production, and the stability and capacity. So to the end of the day as a leader i have to do the balance i have to create a value innovative things and make it fit into the different consumer different retailer on the different price range so that's we continue you know like pushing together so not just everything innovation but no one can, afford it. So it's back in the forest balancing together.

Debbie:

[20:00] It's balancing the customer cost as well as keeping up with the trends in the market. As a woman founder in an industry that's traditionally been relationship-driven and male-dominated, I know a lot of our listeners understand the dynamic of women often having to establish their credibility differently than men. So how did you move through that without losing your openness or becoming cynical?

Ping Yan:

[20:28] This is a real question, Debbie. There have definitely been moments I feel I needed to establish credibility in a different way. In certain rooms, sometimes we realize quickly people are observing how you speak, how you decide, and how you respond. In my earlier leadership, their moment, I feel I have to prove myself. I was so sensitive to show people, oh, I really understood my business. I tried to make a decision and prove my decision is really thoughtful and it's on the right way. So I want to belong to that conversation. It makes me very, very pressure. Sometimes I lost myself because I couldn't sleep very well. But over time, I realized something important. If you try so hard to fit into people trying to be perfect so i lost myself i'm not effective anymore so instead of becoming so aggressively trying to match in a certain style you know i want to become something people will be phrasing on me or look up on me i don't want people look down on me i start focusing more grounded in my own way of leading so i'm.

Ping Yan:

[21:45] I come to the basic principle. What is my clear thinking? Can I do something constantly? Can I follow through? Through the experience, I learned that credibility is not building in one moment. It's really building through time. My heart is not fragile anymore. You know, one order cannot go through. I wouldn't sleep very well. I needed to thinking about the root cause of the problem? How do I give a solution instead of worry? The other part is I build over time. I can show up. And then when I make a decision and how I treat the people, it's not easy. We have to facing the situation. But I'm not doing for some people to show and say, oh, Ping, you're a good leader. I take that off. I try to better myself every day and be a good leader.

Debbie:

[22:39] What advice do have for younger women who's just starting to lead, people who is just in their first management role or considering starting their own venture.

Ping Yan:

[22:49] And I would say for the young women, if I look back, my experience, I would say, Don't rush to prove. Don't just rush to prove yourself. Build it. You have to build your capability. You have to build your thinking. You have to build your resilience. And remember, nothing is easy. Like all of a sudden, you get everything. You have to build your confidence. But your confidence comes before the experience.

Ping Yan:

[23:18] It comes after we survive many, many difficult, even our failure, our mistake. So just continue building yourself and be better every day.

Debbie:

[23:31] Let's touch upon failure. I know in business, you definitely experienced some failures. How did you manage to use that as a stepping stone for you to become a better leader?

Ping Yan:

[23:45] This is a really good question. Through the years and become the leader, I realized that before. I thought in the early young education, We are trained, our mind always says we cannot make mistakes. We have to be perfect. So we're always scared to make a failure. When we say it's a failure, it means you're a loser. So that's, I was earlier when I was young. So it was frustrating me. So when I grew up with my business, and then I learned from a lot of great leaders by learning from them, I finally, one day I realized failure doesn't mean loser. Failure means your setback. It means your next step closer to your success. What's my mindset? Like click. So I'm not afraid about failure, but I want to.

Ping Yan:

[24:48] Keep myself to do the right thing so I don't make mistakes. But I don't be scared about the failure so I don't do anything or I lost my courage. So I treat failure as a learning step. But I always want to, Do we're prepared to avoid failure? I don't need to be. I learned every failure become my successive story. And in my company, we have a culture. We call failure share story. So every one failure we go and then we share it. What's the cost? Why is the failure? And then can we overcome to it? So how can we changing the way we're doing? And then one failure, one person made so everyone else can earned. And so this is encouraging. So I think as a leader, you have to allow your people to make mistakes and create an environment they're not scared to be failed. I think that's very important.

Debbie:

[25:56] Yes, that's true. Like having a safe space to make mistakes, but also learn from those mistakes as well.

Ping Yan:

[26:02] Yes.

Debbie:

[26:03] Ping, you recently spoke at Stanford GSB LEAD Me2We conference about leading through uncertainty. And that was a great talk, by the way. In your everyday world of running a global business, how do you actually keep your resilience up?

Ping Yan:

[26:19] Resilience is really just like a muscle. I have to train with. It's doing this by practice. I realized that before, like every year, we were saying, oh my God, it's so hard. You know, I say that, Debbie, over 20 years now. But last year was really, really hard. Through the years, you see it's nothing certain. Every day you're facing uncertain. Uncertain has become your daily reality. So you just have to your mind to purposely building, taking that uncertainty and finding the solution to it. and then keep building and keep pushing forward one step at a time. And then all of uncertainty, Convert into your strengths. And then you just move forward. That's how I'm building my skills. And then my company, we learned. And then we go into new things, different business model. I think now I embrace uncertainty, Debbie. And that's how I learned and growing my business and myself. I'm not afraid anymore.

Debbie:

[27:38] That's really powerful, Ping. I know some people become paralyzed with uncertainty when they don't have all the facts, when things are ambiguous. There are a lot of uncertainty. So how do you push forward? Give me an example, Ping, where you pushed forward despite the fact that you didn't have the whole A to Z facts with you, where everything was ambiguous. Is how do you have that foresight to push ahead despite the circumstance?

Ping Yan:

[28:14] I learned this trick part is your mindset. Because a lot of people, when facing uncertainty, they freak out first, you know? So they lost their mind, they become frustrated, they become negatively. So what I try to train myself and my team, positive thinking, when we're facing uncertainty, When we're facing the crisis, instead of frustrated, won't help you anything, deep breath. Let's see what can we survive in this circumstance. What's the best we can do? Nothing going to be perfect, but it's always going to be a solution there. Once I have that kind of mindset, So the biggest problem, I try to solving it into the small task. And through the small task, I do one first and the next one and next one. Eventually, we will be able to not finish 100%, but I might give 70% of the work.

Debbie:

[29:20] So breaking down the problem into bite size so that you ultimately arrive at the solution. I think that's very clever. Yeah.

Ping Yan:

[29:28] And then because sometimes it's just like a big rock in front of you, right? Exactly. And it's a big mountain around here. So what you, you know, was it the big mountain? And then sometimes I do that too. It's like I lose my mind. I couldn't even think, you know, and you lose your wisdom. You lose everything. But if we can say, okay, this is a big mountain, but deep break, you know, we don't need to go to the top, but how can we go the bottom, you know, do a step. So the huge problem we have, if we divide it and see what is a small task, What each task, how we link them together, what kind of resource we needed. And then we need to set up the big goal. And then we set up the small goal. And then you have a resource, people working together and encourage them, influencing people in a positive way.

Ping Yan:

[30:24] That's very important. Because otherwise, if everyone says, hey, this is so difficult, we cannot do it. And if they're already losing their confidence, this is exhausted. You will never close to your end. So I tell my people, if you don't try, you're never going to win. But if you try, at least you have 50 chance to win. So this is the mindset, Debbie. I have built myself and continue to train my team. We work together.

Debbie:

[30:52] Through all these years, what still excites you? What new challenges or possibility keeps you motivated to build and create pink?

Ping Yan:

[31:04] I think what is still excited me today is building something new, not just in terms of business, but also the people. I love to connect with people with a kind of new idea and also all kinds of possibility. I don't want to limit myself, limit my business. So I think challenging people.

Ping Yan:

[31:28] Itself, you know, not always exciting. But when we are facing the difficult, uncertainty, all of the uncomfortable things, I know it's not excitement. However, if we're navigating this challenging, we figure out a path or direction so we can adapt this challenging and we can lead to that journey together. Now, we are facing the challenge moving into the AI-driven world, everything evolving. We are trying to create different kind of energy so we will not feel bored or we feel exhausted. We keep motivating ourselves. So not just scaling our business, it's really transformation. Every day, I'm still trying to build an organization. How can we adapt? You know, I train our people, helping the people, how we grow together, facing the change, and also try to stay creative. The end of the day, technology changing fast. So we are building the people, building our organization, embracing adaptability in the real world. That's how we are motivating ourselves. Day by day, you know, keep going.

Ping Yan:

[32:48] I think excitement, that's like a passion. We cannot lose in that momentum.

Debbie:

[32:53] Before we let you go, Ping, I wanted to bring it back to the title of our show. So when you strip away the titles and the track record that you had, what does Scan the Game mean to you today?

Ping Yan:

[33:07] Debbie, I really like your title, Scan the Game. This is a great podcast name. I think it's also a very powerful question. For me, I think Scan the Game, It's changed over time, you know. It's not like, oh, when I'm starting my business. In the beginning, I have to stay away my comfortable zone, my high-paid job. That means I have to take the risk, leaving the stable career and start something new. And then don't know it's going to work. I got a hundred thousand rejection. So that means I can take a risk at the early stage. But today, I think it means something deeper because our business is more stable and growing. We have stable customers now. So if you want to ask me today, I will say it means more responsibility. So the responsibility for the decision I make and then responsibility, the people I lead them forward. And the responsibility for the outcome, even things are uncertain. So I would say skiing the game means that we don't stay back when thinking that it's difficult. We want to move forward. It's a commitment.

Ping Yan:

[34:29] It's the passion to working on. So I think.

Ping Yan:

[34:35] Right now, showing up fully, taking ownership, and continuing moving forward, even when outcome is not guaranteed.

Debbie:

[34:45] Thank you so much, Ping, for joining me today. That was words of wisdom. It was a privilege to explore the discipline and the long-term vision you bring to your work. I think many of us will be looking at our own foundational leadership differently after hearing your perspective on resilience, adaptability, and, of course, being passionate about what the future holds.

Ping Yan:

[35:07] Thank you so much, Debbie.

Debbie:

[35:08] To our listener, what resonated most with you, please put it in the chat. If this conversation hit home, do two things. Subscribe so you don't miss the next one and drop a comment with your biggest takeaway from Ping. I'm Debbie Goh and this is Skin in the Game. We'll see you next time.