Dr. Sang:
[0:01] People go into pediatrics because they like kids, but no, it's really about the whole family, about generations.

Dr. Sang:
[0:08] And even today, there was a mom who was very upset at what happened to her child. And I just sat there with her and I listened and I validated her feelings. And I asked her, what can I do now to help you with your anger, your frustration, and your anxiety? Because the past this to pass. I can't control that. What I can control right now is how we can help you heal as a team so you don't have to do it alone. I think that has a good impact on society. That's the aspect of pediatrics. We don't teach in medical school. Maybe we should start. And there's studies that show that most people forget 80% of what the doctor talked about when they go see the doctor, right? 80% is a lot. And even like 50% of that is misremembered, right? So really, the best of us remember only 10% of what was said at the doctor's office. But 100% of the people remember how they felt.

Debbie:
[1:06] Welcome back to the show, everyone. Today's guest is a man whose life's work is about more than just treating a fever or diagnosing an ear infection. He's a pediatrician, but also a CEO, a philanthropist, and a voice in his community for something that often gets overlooked, the emotional well-being of parents. Please join me in welcoming a thoughtful and dedicated physician, Dr New Sang, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Sang:
[1:36] Debbie, thank you so much for the introduction. That was really lovely. I appreciate your words.

Debbie:
[1:40] Back in 2012, you made a big move. You left a secure job in Hawaii to move back to Fresno and start your own practice, Sang Medical Corp and Sang Pediatrics. What was at stake for you personally and professionally when you made that leap and what would you have lost if you just stayed put?

Dr. Sang:
[2:01] I practiced for five years on Kauai as a pediatrician, general pediatrician. And on Kauai, there are not that many doctors. And on Kauai also, we talk about how there are more cars than there are people because the tourists come in and they rent the cars. And there's only 60,000 people on the island, but there could be 100,000 at any time. So on Kauai, we were very happy. The people are wonderful. I go to Kauai. even now I can go to Costco and say hi to everybody because everybody knows who I am because there's only like five six seven doctors at any one time on the island who are pediatricians so everybody kind of has families and knows who you are so I lost a lot actually moving away from Kauai and to Fresno because I lost that sense of community even now I go to Honolulu where I trained as a doctor. And it's like a family reunion. I see everybody I trained with. And so the community is very tight. It's an island. But I moved home because I wanted to be with my family. My mom and dad have lived in Fresno since 1985.

Dr. Sang:
[3:12] Although I founded Sang Medical Corp and Sang Pediatrics in 2012, my mom is the original Dr. Sang. She moved to Fresno in 1985 and has set up shop as a solo pediatrician.

Dr. Sang:
[3:27] Entrepreneur since then. And so when I moved home, I could practice with my mom. And that's a really special and unique privilege that I have, is to be able to share a profession as noble as pediatrics with my mom. So I gained a lot. Although I lost Hawaii, I lost that sense of community. I lost leaving my door unlocked. That's the type of island that Kauai is. I gained so much. My kids now know my parents, whereas if I stayed on Kaua'i, they would not know them. We're just too far away, and not spend as much time. So I really am proud of the move. It was really hard. I don't know, Debbie, do you ever watch Lost? Did you watch that TV show Lost?

Debbie:
[4:15] No, I haven't. Sorry.

Dr. Sang:
[4:17] It was filmed in Hawaii, and it was filmed during the time that we were there as young doctors, as residents. And there was this one episode where one of the main characters was lamenting moving back to the mainland and saying, we have to go back, Kate. We have to go back. I felt that way every day for a year after leaving Hawaii. We have to go back. You know, I go back at least once a year to the islands, and I reconnect to the earth and the people and the culture, and that helps soothe me.

Debbie:
[4:53] I guess the trade-off of being closer to family is immeasurably priceless.

Dr. Sang:
[4:59] Yeah, we're only here for a limited time. Totally. My children are going to be this young once. Actually, the oldest, when we moved, was 12, and she's 26 now. She's in medical school, and it's like, wow. She goes to medical school nearby, so we're very fortunate to have her around. She picked me up from the airport yesterday. I think it's really great to have family.

Dr. Sang:
[5:21] We only have one family. And if I could make those decisions to allow us to be closer to each other, I don't think I'll ever look back with regret.

Debbie:
[5:32] As a founder and CEO, owner of Sign Medical Corps for over 12 years now, you're responsible not just for patient outcomes, but also for your employee's paycheck. When your own name is literally on the door, how does that change the weight of your decisions, especially when things get tough?

Dr. Sang:
[5:53] I'm so fortunate to have been a physician before I was CEO. I remember the day I became a real doctor where I'm in the hospital and my decision can kill somebody. If you put the decimal point on the wrong place and you give 50 milligrams instead of five, you just killed somebody because those babies are very small and they rely on us to do the math 100%. And so the awesome responsibility of being a physician in charge of somebody's life and also the lives of the families because those families rely on us to make good decisions, to make sound decisions, you can't measure it. Then transitioning to become an owner, founder, CEO.

Dr. Sang:
[6:45] And trying to make decisions of what's best for each individual and also the practice itself and the business and trying to balance all that with other people's demands and needs and wants. It's very important for me to make these decisions from a good place, right? Not from some sort of anxious place or anger. Whenever I make a decision that's based on anxiety or anger, I always make the wrong one. So I was like, oh, okay, I should make the opposite decision. You have to be aware of yourself at that point. So in this journey that we're going to talk about on the podcast.

Dr. Sang:
[7:28] You know, I'm not a perfect person. I had to go through that journey and make mistakes, trial and error, and improve and self-reflect and really think about the decisions I've made for good, for better or worse. But always try your best and always learn from your mistakes. I think that's really important for the viewers and the listeners to hear. Because as doctors, some people still think we're all gods, which life would be easier if we were still all gods, you know? But we're all people, and we're all flawed, and we're all human, and we're doing the best we can at all times. And sometimes when we don't even show it, right, and we go home and we cry, that's how it is. That's what the calling of the profession is, to bring in individuals who will go the extra mile to help save lives because we care so much,

Dr. Sang:
[8:20] especially in pediatrics. So I hope your pediatrician can say the same.

Debbie:
[8:24] I remember when I was growing up, I had my pediatrician all the way until I was like 12 years old because pediatricians become like part of the family. So when you're caring for generations of the same family as a pediatrician, you're treating kids whose parents and even grandparents you also cared for. How does that trust across generation change the way you make decision in the exam room?

Dr. Sang:
[8:50] It's really awe-inspiring. My mom's been a pediatrician since I've been born. So there's still a picture of her holding me as a newborn and it's at the hospital she's training at. Right. And she worked, you know, back then, like 1972, like you just work until you give birth. You don't get the time off and all that stuff. So she gave birth to me at Mercy Hospital in Chicago where she was training.

Dr. Sang:
[9:14] And she's been in Fresno since 85. I've only been here since 2012. So my mom has treated those generations. And I watched her, you know, become part of those families. And I see her now still doing it at 81 years old. Working, she worked full-time today. She really commands a lot of respect because she has gone the extra mile for those families for generations. And luckily, my mom, she's very, very sharp. And so she remembers everybody's mom and grandpa and everything. And all those stories they used to tell her, she remembers it all. And I really am proud of her. I'm not as good as her. It's really difficult for me to remember everybody's names and all their stories. But I do the best I can. I try to live up to those standards. She is really an inspiration and has inspired me to go into the profession and the family business to expand and to grow. As we push forward into the future, I wanted to lay the foundation for success at Sang. Pediatrics. You know, as the owner-CEO, I always try to make sure that we set ourselves up for success.

Debbie:
[10:24] Your family gave a multi-million dollar gift to the Community Regional Medical

Debbie:
[10:29] Center, naming the postpartum wings in honor of your mother, Dr. Orathai Sangrujiveth. So what did it mean to you and to your family to put your own resources behind the hospital where you also practice? And how did your mother's example shape the way you give back to your community?

Dr. Sang:
[10:47] We can talk in an hour about all that. But the first thing was that I used to be chair of the department at the community hospital. I was chair of the department of pediatrics from 2017 all the way through December 2020 pandemic. I made a lot of great friends and a lot of great colleagues, nurses, doctors, respiratory therapists, you name it, at that hospital. That hospital in downtown Fresno, is one of the only level one trauma centers in all of California, and it doesn't get enough recognition. If you ever have a baby and they ever get sick right after birth, the safest place to have that baby is at community hospital. They don't do a good job telling stories at that hospital, but I can tell you that some of the deliveries I've gone to, the state-of-the-art medicine that is practiced there is awe-inspiring. And also as the chair of the department, I go to those leadership meetings where the chairs of all the departments, surgery, emergency department, internal medicine, we all get together and we do what's best and to make decisions that improve the quality of care at that hospital, but also increasing the quality of care of that hospital impacts all the Central Valley of California.

Dr. Sang:
[12:14] So I'm going to have to tell you a secret. I'm going to tell all your listeners. At that time during the pandemic, 2020, 2021.

Dr. Sang:
[12:22] Where I looked around and I was the last pediatrician who would come in to that hospital every day to go see the newborns. I was the last one. Everybody had left. Everybody had allowed the hospitalists, the newborn pediatricians who are paid by the hospital, they let them take care of it. I was the last one who took care of my own patients. And it's a tradition that's been done for generations. My mom did it for decades, and I did it for over 20 years.

Dr. Sang:
[12:53] And at that time, a lot of new doctors were coming up who were not used to the work hours of answering the phone call at 2 a.m. if the baby gets sick. It was just like a few hours old. And so I looked around and I saw like, okay, I'm the last one. And I was in the middle of trying to expand same pediatrics at that time in 2021. And if I were to commit myself to do that, I had to let it go. So once I let go of rounding on newborns at community hospital at downtown Fresno and at Clovis Community Hospital, so I was doing two hospitals at once. Once I let go of that, then I could concentrate my energy and skill set to take Stanford classes. That's the other thing that happened at that time, was I got accepted to lead around the same time. And so the Stanford Lead Program really taught me a lot about business and leadership. You know, you close one door, another one opens, right? So that's what I had to go through that journey of letting go and closing a door that I really still finally look back on and I really care about. After I closed that door, I still wanted to be connected to the community. I still wanted to have an impact. And I never thought I'd be in a position to ever donate.

Dr. Sang:
[14:14] Like I say, millions of dollars. I never thought I would be able to be one of those people. I was listening to a lot of podcasts by Malcolm Gladwell. You ever know Malcolm Gladwell? He's an author. Yes, he is. Yeah, he always talks about how Harvard always has these multi-billion dollar endowments. People donate millions upon millions to get their name on the building. And I was like, gosh, you know. Yeah, yeah, Malcolm Gladwell I never thought I'd be one of those people Ha ha ha, But, you know, it was important. That money goes to help hundreds of thousands of people, not only just the moms, it's the postpartum wing. So after you get birth, you got to go recover. I wanted to thank postpartum maternal and newborn care, you know?

Dr. Sang:
[15:06] And at that point, we wanted to have the facility to help them heal from the birth and also for the baby to get the care and bond with the family. And so I wanted the families to have that too. And then suddenly one day I woke up, I was like, oh, I can't do this. I do have the power to do this. Can we do it? And the philanthropy office, a woman named Kate Lafferty. And Kate was great. And we sat there for three hours thinking about what we can do with that money to try and improve the lives of all the moms who get birthed. 10,000 babies get born in that system a year. 10,000 every year. That makes a huge impact. And so that's really what I'm looking for. How much bang for the buck can we get just by doing something like that? And so I was happy to do that. My mom's been part of this community since 85. To have her name and her picture on the wall of both hospitals, both downtown Fresno and Clovis Community Hospital. My mom still has that picture. It's one of her favorite pictures. She's standing, and my dad's standing next to her plaque on the wall at Clovis Community Hospital. And the memory came up on Facebook. I said, hey, man, look at this. And then she goes, that's my favorite picture.

Debbie:
[16:30] And I think that's an enduring legacy, right? To have a wing named after you and to have impact across generations. I'm curious, Dr. Sang, you mentioned that when one door closes, one door opens. Was it a conscious pivot or was it something that naturally evolved for you?

Dr. Sang:
[16:51] It was a totally conscious pivot. It was similar to when I wanted to move from Kauai, where I was loved. it. I loved it. Go to Fresno. It was a conscious decision. It was really something where I know that I only have this much energy. I had 24 hours in one day. And how do I spend those 24 hours is very important, not just for me, but my employees, my patients, my family. I want to be there for my patients, my family, my employees. I want to be there for them 100%. And I don't know if I could do that if I were still around it. And then I went into Stanford. And I was like,

Dr. Sang:
[17:36] And then it's like, okay, how do I do this? And then I had two clinics and now I had three clinics. And it's like, okay, how do I balance everything? That's a good problem to have, right, Debbie?

Debbie:
[17:46] It is. You've grown so much in terms of the business. Dr. Sang, you've gone on TV to talk about public health issues, like addressing concerns about Tylenol and autism, and also helping parents know when to worry about a fever. As a doctor with skin in the game, what responsibility do you feel to speak up against misinformation? Even when taking a public stance could impact your practice.

Dr. Sang:
[18:11] Another thing I meant on the show, Debbie, I don't really talk about. It's scary, you know, to go up against misinformation. When I wear this white coat, I'm the institution, right? So I'm the establishment. So it's easy for other people to be anti-establishment. No, you don't know what you're talking about. You just yell. And those people who yell are very loud. to try to puff up the chest and be scary, You know, I have a degree in biochemistry from UCLA. I also have a degree in public health specializing in epidemiology from UCLA. I have a medical degree from the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. I interned at the World Health Organization in Switzerland. And I went to a Clovis Unified School District board meeting. And man, oh man, it was not respectful.

Dr. Sang:
[19:06] It was right where delta started in 2021 people wanted to go back to school and they want the kids out and how dare the doctors try to prevent that but i just wanted everyone to know there's consequences to those actions as a physician there's consequences to your decisions you can again you can make or break somebody's whole life by just putting a decimal place in the wrong place I understand that not everybody's experienced that before. So we make it look easy to be doctors and public health advocates, you know? Sometimes, too, some of the best doctors will say, I hate mandates. And I know where they're coming from. If we all took on ownership and responsibility, not just for ourselves, but our fellow people, our community, we wouldn't have to have mandates. And so...

Dr. Sang:
[19:57] We had to have something like that temporarily. Now, some people didn't feel like it was going to be temporary to have mask mandates or vaccine mandates. They felt oppressed because they didn't have a choice. But at the same time, it saved many, many lives. And I hope everybody can reflect now five, six years later and appreciate all the efforts that public health advocates did for them. But the fight never stops. It actually got worse. People became more anti-vax. People got more angry at the establishment. People felt like I didn't know what I was talking about. That got more and more prevalent. So I just have to meet them for where they are. They're probably coming from fear and anxiety.

Dr. Sang:
[20:45] And a lot of anti-vaxxers, again, when you study it and you understand it and you live it like I do, you know that they just love their child and they don't want to just give them something that they may feel may hurt them. It's my job to kind of help them with their fear, right? With their anxiety and their love to ensure that they know that when I'm advocating

Dr. Sang:
[21:08] for them, it's the best thing for their child. I put spinal taps in babies. It's not pleasant. You know, it's not okay. I put in the IV line into the umbilical cord of a newborn, just like five minutes old. That's what we do. Okay. You got to resuscitate that baby. Resuscitation is a skill I'm never going to give. I keep researching that neonatal resuscitation program. I still do it. Again, I can still feel putting in the intubation tube. I can still feel putting in the umbilical line. I can still feel putting in an IV into the hand of a sick baby and feeling it go in and getting that blood in and drawing the blood out and putting the IV fluids through. It's a special feeling. You never kind of lose it. I hope I never lose it as a doctor.

Debbie:
[21:59] Maybe it's such a tiny thing to visualize what you're doing in terms of health and care. It's like It's amazing.

Dr. Sang:
[22:08] Oh, thank you. It took a lot of training and development and skill. I needed to do it over and over again. So that's why when I moved to Fresno, I worked in the NICU every weekend or every other weekend to help out. I wanted to put myself in a position to succeed. So I continued to work hard and hone those skills.

Debbie:
[22:27] I think what's rare about you, Dr. Sang, is that you go beyond traditional pediatrics. You've spoken in the media about parental anxiety, perfectionism, self-forgiveness. What was the turning point when you realized that treating a child's physical health just wasn't enough if the parent was overwhelmed, anxious, or struggling with guilt?

Dr. Sang:
[22:49] Gosh, Debbie, you're going to pull all this out of me, like this podcast. You know, something else I don't talk about. When I was younger, I didn't have the capacity to do that. I was more concerned about getting the diagnosis right. I was more concerned of whether I was giving the right antibiotic. I was concerned about putting the decimal place in the right place. So I was consumed with that without having as much capacity to express empathy for those patients. I've been lucky, though. Some of the patients are amazing, and they've given me grace, too. I've been in those NICUs where the babies shouldn't be alive because the babies are extremely sick and on the verge of death. But those patients are inspiring, too. You find inspiration in many, many people.

Dr. Sang:
[23:35] And something I learned was that those babies were meant to be with those parents.

Dr. Sang:
[23:40] There's a reason. And so when it came time to actually shift my focus to the parents, it was when I was getting these, it was like November, December 24. I was getting all these one-star reviews. All these people were attacking me. And I think that they were struggling with their mental health. I felt like, we're over the pandemic. Why are you still going through it? They were still impacted by the stress and the anxiety that occurred not that long ago. They didn't have the skills or the capacity to heal from those wounds. And they were having young babies, and they weren't sleeping that well. And they were struggling also with congenital diseases that I don't want to get into too much. But those babies were sick, and I had to tell them yes or no. And then when I tell them no, right? Because the parents always ask, you know, I could have been kinder.

Dr. Sang:
[24:38] At that point in 24, I wasn't as kind. So I had to go through my journey and realize like, okay, they're struggling with anxiety, and I wasn't addressing it. And so I had to do better. That's what the one-star reviews were telling me. The universe was telling me I had to do better. So I went on that journey where I was on TV a lot. I made it a mission to talk about parental anxiety for a whole year. I knew that one day I was going to write a book about it.

Dr. Sang:
[25:07] Because every month I put in a lot of work to make sure I was, A, what I was teaching was correct. B, make sure that there's medical evidence about it. And then C, that I was getting the practice of talking about it. And I found that when I was talking about it on TV, I started incorporating it into my own daily life and my practice. So the things that you talk about, whether it's letting go of perfectionism, oh my God. I am a perfectionist as a doctor. Again, I do everything precise by the point. But I'm not always perfect in my daily life. So if I'm late five minutes, I hope my daughter can forgive me.

Dr. Sang:
[25:46] And the power of forgiveness, and I forgive her for making me late for five minutes. You know, it goes back and forth. But at the same time, it allows us to be perfect in other avenues where it's really important. So I do think that it was a great journey for me to be able to put it all together. And then I went to Stanford and did that talk. And thank you, Debbie, for helping facilitate, allowing me to speak as an organizer. It allowed me to speak to the audience. And I got a lot out of that, too, where I got to speak to a lot of Stanford leaders. And just by them listening to me, it really inspired me to finish my book. So I sat there and typed all weekend after the Me Too We conference. And I came up with the book and I published it just a few weeks ago.

Debbie:
[26:37] I think your book is definitely helpful. Your talk specifically. When I first heard it, I thought it was really resonating, not just for parents, but also for leaders in Stanford. So good work.

Dr. Sang:
[26:51] Putting down your anxiety because I have it too. As a small business owner, I ask a lot of other owners, how do you have any anxiety? I always feel like I'm going to go broke. Every two weeks, I got to pay my employees. That's a lot of money. Doctors and nurses are expensive. And I want to lift their standards of living. There's a lot of inflation and whatnot. So I have to keep up with the times and make sure that they have a good quality of life.

Dr. Sang:
[27:16] I'm always trying to help people. And so this was just another way of helping people. And at Stanford, the leaders who were in that room were really inspiring. So again, thank you.

Debbie:
[27:29] Let's talk about your book, Relieving Parental Anxiety, Perspectives from a Pediatrician. Give us an insight into the spark and what's the objective of the book for the people who are reading it? What do you want as an outcome?

Dr. Sang:
[27:45] When I got those one-star reviews that I alluded to before, I sat down after being hurt and heartbroken and reading some of the personal attacks on me, whether it was true or not true, I was just like, okay, fine.

Dr. Sang:
[27:57] But I was like, how am I going to turn lemons into lemonade? And how am I going to make an impact on people? How are we going to make the world a better place? Because, you know, they may fire me as a pediatrician, but they're going to go to somebody else and just be angry at them too. It's never going to end. The cycle doesn't end. So I was like, well, what better form than just going on TV, putting up on a post on Facebook or wherever, on social media, and then somebody can maybe heal from it. And then a lot of people came up to me after the talk. They wanted the slideshow. So let me write this book real quick. And here's 1495. You can read all about it. And actually reference it, too, whether it's about generational trauma or healing the inner child. I wanted society to benefit from my perspective as a physician. And how it impacts children. People go into pediatrics because they like kids. But no, it's really about the whole family, about generations. And even today, there was a mom who was very upset at what happened to her child. And I just sat there with her and I listened to her and I validated her feelings. And I asked her, what can I do now to help you with your anger, your frustration, and your anxiety? Because the past is the past. I can't control that. What I can control right now is how we can help you heal as a team so you don't have to do it alone.

Dr. Sang:
[29:22] I think that has a good impact on society. That's an aspect of pediatrics. We don't teach in medical school. Maybe we should start. And there's studies that show that most people forget 80% of what the doctor talks about when they go see the doctor, right? 80% is a lot. And even like 50% of that is misremembered, right? So really, the best of us remember only 10% of what was said at the doctor's office, you know? 100% of the people remember how they felt. I'm going to reference a little bit back to the COVID. Here in the United States, we were giving to old people, so 75 years old and up, and frontline workers. And I was like the third person to give COVID shots in all of Fresno. How come you saying pediatrician is giving it to 85-year-old grandmas, great-grandmas? But I thought it was important to get us over the pandemic and get back to regular life. It was important to get the protection that the vaccines offered. Some of those patients who came in, those old people, didn't leave the house for over a year. They were so scared. They came in, they had paper towels over their hands when they opened the door, and they didn't want to touch anything.

Dr. Sang:
[30:36] I was like, oh my gosh. And here I am, Dr. Nussang, pediatrician. I had to comfort all those old people. It was an experience that really connected me to humanity. And part of what I'm doing now, the work, is an extension of that time period where I really learned that being a doctor isn't just about did you get the antibiotic right. Being a doctor is about did you heal that patient emotionally as well as physically. So I'm glad to be more of a holistic approach as I get grayer and I start losing my hair.

Debbie:
[31:11] You talked earlier about the inner child healing, how generational trauma gets passed down to children. What made you realize that to truly heal children, you need sometimes to help

Debbie:
[31:24] parents heal their own childhood pain first? Could you also tell us a story where a parent's unresolved trauma directly affected their child's health or behavior?

Dr. Sang:
[31:35] I don't want to speak too much about my patients because I don't want to violate their privacy, but I can speak about myself and my family. And so for me, you know, one time, Debbie, you eat a lot of bread.

Debbie:
[31:50] I do. I love bread.

Dr. Sang:
[31:52] You eat a lot of bread. When there's mold on it, do you throw it away?

Debbie:
[31:55] I do, definitely.

Dr. Sang:
[31:57] Oh, okay. You definitely throw it away. Okay. Yeah, I don't. I toast it and I scrape it off. Eat it. You know? I get it. And so one time, I found a whole loaf in the garbage. And I was like, who did this? Who dared throw this whole loaf of bread away? Well, it was my wife. Why did you do that? Because there's mold on it. I was just like, but there's just a little bit. Yeah, but once it's mold, then it's bad. But you just have to toast it and scrape it off.

Dr. Sang:
[32:33] How wrong I was. And I was upset at my wife for throwing moldy bread. I was like, why am I doing this? Why is Nusay being mad at his wife? And it was because of generational trauma. It was because my parents grew up poor. It's because every grain of rice was precious. It's because my mom came to this country with one suitcase. It was because my dad had to live underneath the stadium in LSU, with a football stadium because that was the cheapest place to live in all of Louisiana. And on Saturdays when they played a football game, he had to move out because the stadium would be full of people because we built the practice from zero patients in 1985. It was because of my dad's dad and his mom moving from China to Thailand with nothing as well. He was like, nothing, nothing.

Dr. Sang:
[33:30] And then my mom, who lost her mother when she was very little, being raised by her siblings, and how that affected her. All that trauma, it builds up. It can get passed down. And so I was afraid of going broke forever. I asked all those small business owners, how do you deal with it? And also going through the physiology of it, the understanding of the physiology as a doctor. I learned about neural psych, but am I applying it? So it's just an application of knowledge, knowing that your thinking brain up here in your prefrontal cortex is a lot different than your hind brain in your amygdala. And that stores all the memories and the fears. All the anxiety is stored back there. When that one goes online, this one goes offline. So how do we reboot this part of our brain? And going through that journey, not just for myself, but all my patients.

Dr. Sang:
[34:26] And so it's a great, Is it really a superpower? What do you think, Debbie? Is it a superpower? Or is it just not lying?

Debbie:
[34:37] I think it's an awareness. Like you, I grew up in a household where my parents are quite frugal. And you don't leave the table until your plate is clean. Yeah.

Dr. Sang:
[34:50] You better clean that plate.

Debbie:
[34:52] You better, exactly. You don't waste the food.

Dr. Sang:
[34:56] And young new saying, I remember 5, 10, 12 years old, I was the one cleaning everybody else's plate, making sure everybody else was, you know, taken care of, right? And making sure that we didn't waste any food. That was me. That was my job. Yeah. But, you know, I kind of let that go.

Debbie:
[35:15] Let's talk about a topic that you mentioned earlier, the perfectionism and how it drives anxiety in kids. I'll give you an example. in Singapore, parents look at kids as their own reflections. They want their kids to do well in school and they're enrolling their kids to review centers just to make sure that they hit the top notch. You shared science-backed strategies to help parents break that cycle. So as a father of three girls yourself, how do you navigate the tension between your professional expertise and your own real-life challenges as a dad.

Dr. Sang:
[35:50] Oh my gosh. Well, I see how detrimental it was for me, Dr. Newsang. To have a parent drive him crazy. Try to get into Harvard and Stanford and all these like art schools to get into, you know. UCLA was not good enough. Oh my gosh, you know. And so that caused a lot of anxiety and depression for myself in my teens and 20s. Every parent wants something better for their children. So when I got my children, I said, I'm not going to do that. I do want them to be successful. I do want them to do their best my oldest child is in medical school and graduated from UC Berkeley.

Dr. Sang:
[36:35] So humble brag and my middle daughter is emotionally intelligent and is so talented in art just this weekend I was texting her and it's like I don't know how to help you become a tattoo artist but I think this is what the research I've done to try to like help you achieve your goals. And she was like, I was afraid she was like going to yell at me, you know, as a doctor, you know, just like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, but this is what I'm trying to, you know, tell you what to do. But she's like, no, thank you for, thank you for your advice and your support and trying to help me on my journey. And I was like, oh, thank you.

Dr. Sang:
[37:17] You know, as for the Singapore people who are getting their kids into the top schools and try to drive them to be a success. The advice I have as a child who was born to Asian parents who did the same for me and my siblings, just remember that they need to feel loved too. I know that that's one way we express our love is to give them the means and the support to become successful. But take it from me, my parents never told me I love you.

Dr. Sang:
[37:50] And I grew up thinking they didn't love me and that they used that to drive me to become more and more successful. And it took a mental toll on me to the point where I had to go through a journey of self-discovery and mental health and all that stuff. But I don't want my children to have to wait to their 40s and 50s to go through that journey. I tell them I love them every day. And I give them the unconditional support. It's like, if it's with school, great, I'll buy it for you, no problem. Your books, not a big deal. Pokemon cards and kpop i don't think you need that different color album for whatever group you know that's what that's what's discussion just yesterday why don't we save that money for something else and they can learn the value of money elsewhere but they know that i care, that's the most important so yeah don't forget that part of it too yeah go for it get into that top school, that would be awesome. If my kid got into those schools, I would be ecstatic. And we're actually trying, so I'm no different than them. But if they don't, remember too that they can be successful as well and they can be happy. It's the pursuit of happiness. It's not the pursuit of the degree on the wall. You just want happy children. So remember that part. Yeah.

Debbie:
[39:14] Thanks for that advice. I think sometimes the way you express your love comes in different forms and parents.

Dr. Sang:
[39:22] It's cultural. I know. I have Asian parents. Although my parents don't say I love you, I know they do.

Debbie:
[39:29] They just express it in different ways.

Dr. Sang:
[39:33] Different ways. So I get it.

Debbie:
[39:36] How about gratitude? I know in your book you mention about how gratitude can help parents reduce anxiety and create a calmer, more nurturing environment for kids at home.

Debbie:
[39:47] So how do you practice forgiveness Self-forgiveness specifically to calm the nervous system.

Dr. Sang:
[39:54] Right. Once I started forgiving other people for not being perfect, for not getting 100%, once I did that, I started doing it for myself.

Dr. Sang:
[40:06] And I started forgiving myself for not being 100%, 100% of the time. Because nobody is. It's okay. I can strive for it. If I fail, I'm not a failure.

Dr. Sang:
[40:19] And so once I started forgiving myself, I became more grateful for myself and everything. People look at what I've accomplished, whether it's through business, medicine, philanthropy, or whatever. Yeah, cool. But at the same time, I have to be able to enjoy it. And I can only do that if I forgive myself for not being perfect. So I will always strive to be, that's my North Star, but I have to also give myself a little break. Like, sometimes I think, okay, live a 95-5 rule. You know, 95% is great. And then the 5%, I'll work on it. And so Kaizen, continuous improvement, the Japanese term. We do that a lot of same pediatrics. And it's built into our culture because they really want us to be the best, you know, and hold ourselves high. Just like your family too, Debbie, I bet, right? You want you guys to be the best. So that's why we do these podcasts. That's why we talk about these things, to help improve our lives, our mental health, and the impact it has on our children and our community. So I hope your listeners can get something out of it too. You know, si se puede. That's a Spanish term. You know, yes, we can. It can be done.

Debbie:
[41:43] I remember that, si si puede.

Dr. Sang:
[41:45] Yeah, si si puede.

Debbie:
[41:46] Nowadays, online reviews carry a lot of weight. So how important are they in terms of building your own practice? And more importantly, where do you draw the line between adapting your communication style to keep patients happy versus standing firm on what you believe in terms of medical decision to be the right choice for the child's best interest?

Dr. Sang:
[42:09] There's a medical study that shows that people with the most five-star reviews are usually the worst doctors. You see, they're just pursuing the five stars. They're not actually giving real medical advice. They're just trying to get likes and subscribers.

Dr. Sang:
[42:22] So how is it that you balance the two? I used to think as a young doctor, it was impossible. I used to think you have to choose one or the other. And that binary thinking, that false dichotomy, was not really me anymore. I let all that go. You can practice great medicine and have a point of view as to how medicine should be practiced. Every doctor is different. They've had different experiences. I lived in different parts of the world. And so I've seen different things and seen things which work well in one country and not in the other. And so I have a broader viewpoint than people who haven't done that. And that's okay, too. Again, it comes down to all your values. I think if we can get the one-star review and still respect them and not disrespect the person, you can learn a lot from that one-star review. And when you get the angry phone calls from the parents who feel like they didn't get enough treatment or they got too much treatment, you say, I understand. My life is so much better since I've approached those phone calls and those reviews with empathy and my values of respect and trust. Although some people, they're not very truthful in their review. Okay, fine. But some of them are.

Dr. Sang:
[43:44] And you've got to focus on those. And you'll always get better if you do. And that's why I can sit here with you now, Debbie. Because if I continue down that path of being dismissive, like, ah, they don't know what they're talking about or something like that, I don't think my mental health would be as good. Running three practices, three vocations, and then doing the Stanford and all this stuff, writing the books and whatever. I don't think I would have that capacity, but luckily I've done the work and I have. So here we are.

Debbie:
[44:16] In closing, your practice has won the Doctor's Choice Award for pediatrics multiple times. Looking at the next generation of physicians, so many are choosing hospital employment over the ownership path you took. What do you think they gain? And more importantly, what do you fear they lose by not having their own skin in the game?

Dr. Sang:
[44:39] Oh, gosh, that's a great question, Debbie. As you say, in the United States, too, more people are turning to comfort over uncertainty because it's comforting to know that an institution as big as, say, Kaiser Permanente, who give great benefits, there's comfort in knowing that they're not going to go bankrupt. And they're always going to be around and give you the great benefits and see you through until you retire. Whereas if you become an entrepreneur and you try to do it yourself, lots of anxiety. Even I struggle with like, oh my God, we're going to go broke. But we never do. We never miss a paycheck. We always do well.

Dr. Sang:
[45:19] But what do they lose is the ability to have the impact on their employees and to grow leaders. Something I'm really proud of at St. Pediatrics is the fact that my management team came up from ground zero. They were like receptionists or billers or front desk people.

Dr. Sang:
[45:40] And they were excellent at their job. So I wanted to reward that excellence by developing their leadership skills so that they become managers and supervisors and assistant supervisors and whatnot. You know, we'd tear that up. Whereas in the past, I used to do everything myself. You know, big mistake of small business owners. You've got to do everything yourself. One thing I'm really proud of is taking what we learned at Stater and then applying it to my business every time. And even like me to we, you know, one of the leaders always posts about how that story of how, you know, one of the company trips, I went to Google in Mountain View in 2000, when it was 23, 24. And I saw that there's women's sanitary napkins and tampons for free in the men's bathroom. I was like, huh, that's interesting. and it reminded me of my wife and I talk about in Scotland they made it free for everybody and how we should do that for every you know it just validates women's humanity right just to have it free you don't have to go in and not afford it or something or skimp on it and so I was like huh but that'd be great if it was free in the United States but no it's never gonna happen.

Dr. Sang:
[46:52] What? Wait, I'm the owner of Sang Pediatrics. Why don't I just buy it for them? And I just call the managers. Hey, everybody gets free sanitary napkins at Sang Pediatrics, like that day, before I even got on the bus back to Stanford from Google. They talk about that every time. That's me to me. They talk about it a lot. Every day gives you an opportunity to make an impact on somebody's life that you never really thought about. And I hope that I set a good example for others because I can't control other people. I can only control myself. And so everybody who's there, who's listening to this podcast right now, I hope you can do the same for you, your family, your children, and generations to come. I wish you the best. And you too, Debbie.

Debbie:
[47:41] So much, Dr. Sang. Thank you for your impact, your vulnerability, and your expertise. And more importantly, for putting your own skin in the game to make our community healthier.

Dr. Sang:
[47:54] Yes, skin in the game is so important. We're all connected. We're all connected.

Debbie:
[47:59] Before we close, I'd like to just remind everyone, Dr. Sang's new book is Relieving Parental Anxiety, Perspectives from a Pediatrician. You can find Dr. Sang at Sang Pediatrics in Fresno. We'll have links to everything on the show notes. Thanks for listening. Take care.