Skin in the Game: Consumer Health Legend Nicholas Hall

[00:00:00] Debbie : Today's guest is a name that's synonymous with consumer health care. A true legend in the industry, Nicholas Hall. He is not just a distinguished authority. He's a visionary who spent over four decades shaping the world of over-the-counter medicine and health care innovation. From chairing more than 300 OTC conferences to leading projects in 58 countries, Nicholas stands as one of the most influential voices on the global landscape of consumer health.

[00:00:31] Debbie : He started his career with major names like Procter Gamble, Vicks, and G. D. Searle, which is now part of Pfizer. But in 1978 , He took a bold leap and founded his own consultancy, the Nicholas Hall Group of Companies. Today, the NH Group is a global powerhouse offering comprehensive solutions from strategic consulting and business intelligence, covering the full spectrum of consumer health, from pharmacy point of [00:01:00] care to mHealth.

[00:01:01] Debbie : With a client list that includes all the major OTC players worldwide, Nicholas is a trusted advisor. And a go to thought leader shaping the future of consumer health care. His story is a masterclass in resilience, risk taking, and reinvention. 

[00:01:18] Debbie : Let's give a warm welcome to the one and only Nicholas Hall. Nicholas, welcome to the show.

[00:01:25] Nicholas: Thank you, Debbie. I when I hear an accolade like that, it makes me feel very old, We started the company in 1978, In 68, I was still working. I was just transitioning from Procter and Gamble to another company. So thank you. It's great to be your guest. I'm hugely supportive of what you're trying to do. I love the title skin in the game. So ask those penetrating questions and I'll try to give you good answers.

[00:01:49] Debbie : Founding the Nicholas Hall Group in 1978, was a bold move. What was the driving force behind that decision? Were there specific motivation or circumstances that [00:02:00] pushed you to start your own venture? 

[00:02:03] Nicholas: You know I'd love to say that I had foresight and indeed foresight is one of the things that we preach in our training business. But I can't say that I had foresight. I can't say I had a crystal ball. It was step by step. And I honestly believe that most entrepreneurs do, take opportunities as they come up, they grab them, they try them.

[00:02:22] Nicholas: Of course, many ideas fail. I failed on many things before coming to into this particular business, which has been generally successful, but of course, like all businesses its had its ups and downs. To be very frank with you in 1978, the reason I left being an employee is that I couldn't get on with my bosses.

[00:02:39] Nicholas: I didn't find a boss apart from my very first boss at Procter Gamble. I didn't find a boss who was sympathetic and I thought I can be my own boss. And I'd be my own boss for a long time. Although ultimately I think for most of my time, the boss has been my wife and the bank manager, 

[00:02:55] Nicholas: And most entrepreneurs, if they're honest, will tell you that [00:03:00]opportunities come to them, certainly in the early stages and What separates a good entrepreneur from a bad one is two things.

[00:03:08] Nicholas: One is seeing an opportunity and saying, I can add something to whatever the need is that I'm seeing here. And secondly, is to realise that a lot of new ventures fail and not to be defeated. A famous wise man said that it isn't falling over that counts. It's getting up right afterwards and carrying on with life. That's been part of my journey when I've stumbled. Pick yourself up and get on with it. I think now people use expression "Fail fast", but also succeed early if it's right for you. Carry on with it and make it better. If it's wrong, take an objective look. Is it just wrong for you, but right for other people in which case move on to something else or is it right for you but you just weren't doing it the right way. And then you have to be very experimental. You have to try new things. The great thing about being a one-man band, as all entrepreneurs are to start with is, that you don't answer to anyone else. You [00:04:00] have only yourself to praise and blame whether it's successful or not. So those are just a few random thoughts about how I started in 1978. You're right in one thing that 1968 is when I set up my first business. But I worked for another 10 years because I didn't have the confidence to go out and support myself just with my own business.

[00:04:19] Nicholas: I had businesses in other industries. But in 1978, I took the, bold step to set up a consultancy specialising in health and beauty. Beauty was hived off after about 20 years. And we had a very nice beauty business at one stage and then we became wholly specialist in consumer health.

[00:04:36] Debbie : Starting a business I can imagine is a huge undertaking and things often don't go as planned as you mentioned. But in those early days, what was one of the biggest hurdles you faced and how you navigated through it? And what did that experience teach you about resilience and perseverance in business? 

[00:04:53] Nicholas: I think amongst the problems that you face as a new entrepreneur, first of all is [00:05:00] cashflow. You've got to, generate cash in those days, which was pre internet accounting people sent you checks and then there were the usual problems of the check went to the wrong place or check was in the post, but in fact it wasn't. So cashflow was a problem for all businesses. Then I think it's less of a problem now because if a company says it's going to pay you for 60 days, they do what we used to get were people saying we'll pay you at 30 days. And then six months later, you were still arguing over, where's the cheque? Second thing is for an entrepreneur with no team, it's very hard to do the work and be out there prospecting for the next project. And I think in consultancy which was our original business and is still our second biggest business after data, it was hard.

[00:05:48] Nicholas: And I think most consultants who set up have the first project that's pretty easy to get. the second and the third and the fourth are the most hard to get, And that's what we suffered with. And then eventually we [00:06:00] ran into some problems that forced us to diversify. And then we went into publishing, we went into conferences, we went into events and most recently, we went into training and recruitment, which are both very successful businesses. And the other thing is just not having the staff back up. I'll tell you an anecdote. The very first project I got was a tiny little project from a company in the North of England that wanted to take a bill of bandage, which was used in hospitals, and make it into a consumer product. So I did a two months project, I researched the market, at the product, I looked at the opportunity. I advised on the need for repackaging, pricing, key account management and the like. 

[00:06:40] Nicholas: I typed the report and the tables were too big to go on a single page. And of course, we didn't have all the abilities to scan and reduce and expand. So I remember and this is after 13 years as a fairly senior executive with secretarial staff. In those days, we had shorthand typist, and I can remember [00:07:00] having to drive down to the local town, go to the post office, and I had about 15 minutes to get this report to the client in the post before the last post. It had to be the next day I had to buy the scotch tape and I had to scotch tape four pieces of paper together on my knee in my car. And I thought, this is real life. This isn't what I was doing before, where I'd just hand it to another person who would take it away, and I'd never see that again, and I knew it would get through, and it would be couriered if necessary, and this was me as a one-man band, sitting in the front seat of my car with all my secretarial materials around me, making a report with 15 minutes to get it into the post. Actually as the postman came, I put it in his sack as he entered the post box. And that's the reality. And even today, although I have great colleagues, but even now, I still end up doing very clerical things, but not much now because I have a great team. But there are times when you still have to do the clerical work and that's the life of an entrepreneur. [00:08:00] You do everything for the client. But you also have to run the business.

[00:08:02] Nicholas: That's what a lot of people with skin in the game forget. it's all well and good being a fantastic advisor to the client. You've also got to be an advisor to yourself. You've got to run your business in a way that can meet the requirements of turnover, sustainability of the business and be profitable. So I've learned lessons the hard way there over 47 years of having this company.

[00:08:25] Debbie : Sometimes failure can be a great teacher for us, but it's rarely a lesson we chose. Can you share a specific setback or failure that fundamentally reshaped not just how you approach the business, but also your perspective on life?

[00:08:38] Debbie : How did that experience influence the way you lead or make decisions today?

[00:08:43] Nicholas: We set up in 1978 and within one or two years, we had very attractive client who reached out to us. They actually wanted me to hire me to run part of the company, but I said, no, I've set the consultancy up and it's going well, so why don't we hire the consultancy? And [00:09:00] effectively they became our only client and we became very dependent on them. We signed multiple contracts. And then in 1980 the Shah of Iran was deposed and the price of oil went from 3 to 10, which is nothing because oil is anywhere between 70 and 100 dollars a barrel, but then going to 10, the general view was that the world economy was going to collapse for many years.

[00:09:23] Nicholas: We were going to have another, 1929 meltdown of the stock market. And it didn't turn out to be like that, but what actually happened was that there was six months when all clients became very conservative. So we pretty well lost all our business. there were projects with our big client that they literally broke the contracts.

[00:09:43] Nicholas: I was involved in high court legal actions against a major company. I won't name it, but it's famous and we won after six years, but when we paid our legal costs, 

[00:09:53] Nicholas: we'd have been better not to have started the action. 

[00:09:56] Nicholas: So that was one thing I learned, which is never go to court. But [00:10:00] what it did was it forced us into looking for other ways to keep the business going. With consultancy being soft for everybody, the big consultants and ourselves. There was a company and still is a company called Frost and Sullivan which did industry sector reports. So we started writing for them, did a little bit of work for one or two other companies in that space, and that really taught us how to be in the report writing business. And later when they went into events, they actually showed us how to do it because I knew how to put on a conference, but I didn't know the logistics. 

[00:10:32] Nicholas: And in that time, we became a publisher and an events manager. And that in turn brought us into other businesses, which gives us the whole portfolio. We became a data provider, and that's over 40% of our business.

[00:10:44] Nicholas: And we compete with some very famous names in providing data. And all the major marketers and many mid-sized and smaller companies buy data from us a hugely successful business. I never, ever thought I'd be in that business. 

[00:10:58] Debbie : That's an amazing [00:11:00] pivot that you've shared, Nicholas. in the consumer health space, it's always evolving. New trends, regulations, technologies are constantly emerging. So as your business expanded internationally, how did your approach, on , innovation and risk taking evolved throughout the process?

[00:11:20] Nicholas: So the first thing to say is that, as has been so often the case in my life, I've had a lot of luck. I put that down to my Irish ancestry. I'm 50% Irish going back some generations, and the Irish are naturally lucky people. And I've had a lot of good luck.

[00:11:33] Nicholas: What happened was when we came into publishing and we were invited to join a company that already existed to help the lady who set this cosmetics magazine up, it was B2B I was invited in to be her partner. I didn't pay anything to join her, but she needed support. All sorts of support, marketing support, support in the sense of figuring out where the business was going financially. And the great thing was that the industry was just turning from old fashioned print of

[00:11:59] Nicholas: [00:12:00] magazines, particularly small run magazines, to where the new technology was coming in. Now it's just amazing power of the equipment. I'm looking at, and with everything electronic, you don't print anymore.

[00:12:11] Nicholas: We've just taken the decision not to print our monthly magazines anymore. They're going to be fully electronic, but in those days it was printing, but it was so much easier with word processing. And also the printers will bring in new technology, which could give you small runs at very affordable prices. So when we eventually became the owners of European cosmetic markets and then we launched what is now Nicholas Hall's Insight Europe. The technology was in our favor, five years and certainly not 10 years earlier. We wouldn't have been able to do it. It would have been, you would have need such massive costs and so much capital equipment. We wouldn't have gone into that. And then the whole growth of the internet, communications, emails, personal computers, the technology, the iPhone. I've been on Apple since 1984. I've never [00:13:00] used a PC. So we were by luck with the most advanced system. In the early days, all advertising agencies and creative people use Macs and the rest of the world used PCs. And MacsNow we were lucky that we grew with the technology. We adapted. We were quite cautious. I'm still not fully into AI yet, but my younger colleagues have persuaded us to take the first step I just think that we were so lucky that the technology was there when we needed it.

[00:13:26] Nicholas: I suppose there's an element of skill in knowing what's going to work and finding the money because it was extremely expensive in the early days to buy this kit. 

[00:13:34] Nicholas: I would like to know your thoughts about, the mergers and acquisitions and market shifts that's constantly reshaping the landscape. So how have you navigated these changes while staying grounded and optimistic? And what's your advice for businesses facing those similar challenges today? 

[00:13:51] Nicholas: The first thing to say is that consumer health is a fabulous business to be in. it's had reasonably good growth over the years, somewhat held back [00:14:00] by the fact that it's FMCG plus regulations. as you all know, because you've been in the market for many years, Debbie, the consumer purchase for a registered OTC medicine is only once or twice a year.

[00:14:12] Nicholas: So unlike my first company, Procter Gamble in soaps and detergents in those days, the consumer was in the market every week. So the opportunity to try new products. was phenomenal. So P&G, game was to win users from Unilever, the main competitor, and, you ran all sorts of trial inducing promotions. OTC isn't like that. The consumer is only in once or twice. They're nervous of products that might have side-effects. So there's what I call defensive brand loyalty.

[00:14:41] Nicholas: Consumers don't change to new brands for the simple reason they're frightened of them. So they stick for a defensive reason to known brand. 

[00:14:49] Nicholas: Now supplements is different, but, for registered OTC medicines there is this factor of defensive brand loyalty. Nevertheless, it's a good market. it's employs good people. And I think [00:15:00] because of an element of patent, protection in the parent industry of big pharma, I think it's softer.

[00:15:06] Nicholas: It's gentler. It's more collaborative. People try to stay in the industry. If they leave a company, they try to move to another company in the industry. I know many people who've been in the industry as long as me. Or people I've known for 20 and 30 years and our own company has very high staff retention.

[00:15:22] Nicholas: What I would say is that M&A has changed the face of this industry athough it is still very fragmented. And the danger of that, of course, is it can take away very significant parts of your client base. So I've had, GSK, which has always been a big client, which merged with Novartis, So two into one, you have one client. 

[00:15:42] Nicholas: Although when Glaxo Wellcome was formed, I had Glaxo as a client, Wellcome as a client when they merged. Neither of them bought my products. So one plus one equals zero for me. So you always have to have a BD program looking for new clients. And currently our biggest client is not one of the famous [00:16:00] multinationals. It's a very dynamic Indian company that just made with our help a big acquisition last year. And we're helping on the integration so M&A is an opportunity. Normally it's perceived as a threat because it reduces your client base. But if you, in a sense, go with the wind it can be very supportive. And two-thirds of our consultancy businesses is now focused on M&A. Last year we were on the bids for, not successfully, for Sanofi and Stada. but we did for Dr. Reddy's. So M&A is a source of revenues for us. But it does shake our customer base and we have to go out and look for new clients to replace.

[00:16:32] Nicholas: So that's an ongoing and every entrepreneur, big or small or every company has to face that. Whoever you're selling to, whether it's to the consumer, whether it's to another company, your client base is going to change. You've got to be alive to the fact that you must constantly refresh your client base.

[00:16:48] Nicholas: Now let's talk about Asia Pacific region. We all know it's very diverse and fast paced and each market would have its own unique characteristics. So what mindset do you think is [00:17:00] vital for business success in this region? And how do you strike that balance between local insights and global strategies?

[00:17:07] Nicholas: We've been active in Asia since 1992, which means that, over 30 years, coming up to 35 years in the region. we've had an office with a few years out during the 1997 collapse of certain countries, we've had an office in Singapore since then. And we have a relatively small staff in Singapore and Philippines. Many business people don't realize this, that Asia is not only different from other parts of the world, but the internal differences are huge, much more marked than we see even in Europe and certainly in the United States. You can't think of China as one market. You have to think of it as almost like a number of separate countries.

[00:17:47] Nicholas: So the attitudes in the north are very different from the attitudes in the south. And it's only history that has put all those separate independent kingdoms into one [00:18:00] country. But as far as consumer preferences are concerned very different. A brand that might succeed in Guangzhou will not necessarily succeed up North or in the far West. And then when you look at a regional strategy North Asia, China, Taiwan, Korea, South Korea and Japan are relatively close to each other, but totally different. The way the consumer thinks, the way they purchase, the way manufacturers think is very different. Chinese companies are more experimental, Japanese companies and I'm generalizing are more conservative. Korean companies tend to be very aggressive 

[00:18:37] Nicholas: When you're negotiating with them, the gloves are off and it's bare knuckle fighting. Whereas in Japan everything is very cultured. It's very gentle to an extent. Although Japanese companies are great deal makers, you take three or four meetings before you even start to have the proper discussion. And China, it just depends if it's the affiliate of a foreign enterprise, it's done [00:19:00] very much in a Western way. If it's a local company, many of whom are state-owned, the culture and the way of doing business is totally different. I enjoyed that. when you come down south and you look at those interesting markets like Indonesia and Philippines it's different again. And then when you go round to India with very low pricing, but great companies and fragment a million pharmacies. 

[00:19:23] Nicholas: Of course a great many products can be sold outside of pharmacy in India. So you have several million potential distribution points. it's hard to cover the market as a newcomer.

[00:19:33] Nicholas: There are strong local companies. If India is an interesting market, then typically finding a joint venture partner is the way forward. But every country is different, and within the bigger countries, every province or state is different. 

[00:19:44] Debbie : Speaking of leadership you've worked with countless executives globally. In your experience, what qualities do you think define truly effective leaders in today's competitive business environment?

[00:19:56] Nicholas: Leadership is a quality that hasn't [00:20:00] been fully defined. Every five or ten years there's a new theory of leadership. I remember we all got very excited many years ago about the five minute manager, the person who in five minutes could make a friend of everybody and now you'd be arrested if you did it.

[00:20:15] Nicholas: But it didn't matter whether it was men or women, but the Five minute manager had to put his hand on the shoulder of the person you were talking to and look into their eyes and say, I believe in you. Now if you put, if a male leader puts his hand on the shoulder of a woman, you'll end up in jail. So it's you have to be very careful. But 20 to 25 years ago, we all bought the book, the Five minute manager.

[00:20:37] Nicholas: we were all trying to put this into practice and you saw so many instances of people putting their hand on the shoulder, look into the eyes. And I thought there's somebody who has read the five minute manager. 

[00:20:46] Debbie : I'd say now that Leadership is very consensual. Of course, there are exceptions. There are outliers. But I came into the business when leaders were dictators. I worked for a company where the CEO of the whole company [00:21:00] which has just been

[00:21:00] Nicholas: taken over by a big American enterprise, would go into the factory and with no knowledge, just to prove his superiority, would point to a piece of equipment, 

[00:21:09] Nicholas: a production machine and say that isn't working properly I want it decommisioned now. The engineers would come in and they'd literally unbolt that machine from the floor, take it off and put another one in its place. He had no knowledge of production, but it's his way of showing I'm the boss. It's not like that now. I think that leaders, they lead from the front. But it's all about vision. It's all about empowering. I think a lot of companies have the words but don't actually practice it. And that's why I always have a laugh when I go into some of the big companies and I read their mission statement. And I think, but what really happens is the mission statement written by an advertising agency or a consultant, rarely described what's happening.

[00:21:48] Nicholas: We have four statements in our mission statement. Do good work, make money, have fun, give something back. we support a number of charities, Médecins Sans Frontières, [00:22:00]we support local charities in the area of autism, where I have family members who have autism. We put a lot of time and effort into offering training programs for our staff. I think giving back is essential for a business that has a conscience.One of the reasons we have relatively slow growth and poor innovation in our industry. 95% percent of the new products launched have no innovation in them at all. We have a product called new products tracker and in the last 13 years, we've tracked 50,000 new products launched in the top 20 countries and we grade them at the launch from 4-star, which is create new category. 3-star, which is significant new brand or product in an existing category.

[00:22:40] Nicholas: 2-star is a tiny point of difference. 1-star is no difference at all. 95% of new products in the 2 and 1-star. 70% of new products are 1-star. There is absolutely no difference with a ton of other products on the market. And that's one of the reasons why we have poor [00:23:00] growth in the industry. Now bring that back to leadership. One of the issues is that we're so keen to empower people that we bring too many people into the decision making process. And then at the point when it has to be, it's going to be A or B, the company's exhausted. Everyone's had their point of view. 

[00:23:16] Nicholas: You ask a question hoping to get a simple answer and it just makes it more complicated and you don't want to let people down who put effort into it. I think leadership has to come back to being more decisive, empowering people, but only up to a point. The end of the day, there's somebody who's finger has to press the button to go or not to go. and I don't think many companies have it somewhere in there is true leadership that inspires, that leads and also pushes. And I'd say very few of the companies I work with have that to a high degree of perfection. 

[00:23:50] Debbie : Nicholas, you've been at the forefront of significant shifts in healthcare, particularly in self medication and RX to OTC switches.

[00:23:58] Debbie : Is there one particular [00:24:00] project or innovation that stands out as a game changer? how did that project not only transform the industry, but also your perspective in terms of what's possible? 

[00:24:10] Nicholas: We went into the US in 1990 and we continue to be active. we have people there. I'd say that although it now isn't quite the bellwether country that it used to be, in fact, we see more true innovations coming out of markets like the UK, Poland, New Zealand, Australia, even Mexico. Nevertheless it's a market to watch because of its size. It's about a third of the world market. When I first came into the US market in 19 90, the modern trend of prescription to OTC switch had just started and there had been some amazing switches in the recent past. Gynelotrimine for example, which was vaginal antifungal product had just been taken over the counter very successfully, although other products came in later and overthrew that position. And we went into a [00:25:00] golden era of switch where a lot of new formulations came into the marketplace. Claritin coming into the OTC market. It went off patent in just before the year 2000. It went over the counter. Around about that time, the price fell by something like 80%.

[00:25:17] Nicholas: So consumers could afford through self medication what was an expensive purchase. If they went to the doctor, the cost of seeing the doctor, the cost of the prescription, unless they had private medical insurance and it was a huge success. And then other brands came into that space, Zyrtec then Allegra.

[00:25:36] Nicholas: And then we've had Flonase come into that market. It's been incredible. And I think a real eye-opener, particularly for those who are also working in the rest of the world where switch doesn't work in the same way. The price tends to go up. The prescription form stays on the market.

[00:25:52] Nicholas: We're going to see some very important switches. I think that's important because if you look over time, there have been three main [00:26:00] drivers of consumer health, and I'm generalizing here.

[00:26:02] Nicholas: One is switch, which is very much in the United States. Second is the growth of the emerging markets. Emerging markets used to be about 20% of world total. And now it's about 50%. You add in the big markets of China, Asia, Latin America, Middle East, North Africa which no longer add Eastern Europe.

[00:26:20] Nicholas: There was a time when we counted Russia and Poland as emerging markets, but they've had huge growth. And those coming into the emerging markets for the first time , and going back to your question on Asia meant that they could go very good growth. Those companies who embrace the emerging markets could show good growth.

[00:26:36] Nicholas: And as consultants, we were advising some of those companies on that journey. But switches down the emerging markets are now off the top. They're not showing the growth as before. The rate is slightly higher than in the West, but it's not dramatically higher than in the West. And the third is a very good cough cold season. in the pandemic, we had 4 or 5 years in which because consumers were social distancing, wearing masks ,using [00:27:00] hand sprays, the rest of the market was very poor it's coming back because we've lost our personal immunity So now we're much more susceptible to common cold and flu but that took a big chunk out of out of the market, So the pandemic hit very hard the respiratory market and certain other sectors . Now. that means that we've got to put back growth in a different form, and that's why we need to have real innovation, a product that really offers something new to the consumer they never had before.

[00:27:30] Nicholas: That's our idea of 4-star and being able to communicate that so the consumer doesn't go to the doctor and takes advantage of the availability of consumer health and also allows the manufacturer to make a profit. It's a capitalist economy for consumer health care. If companies don't make a profit, they'll get out of the business. Retail is the same, but it is possible to make good profits. In fact, this is a highly profitable industry, higher than FMCG, but not as high as Big Pharma. Many companies are heading up to the 30% EBIT now, and it used to be somewhere between 10 and [00:28:00] 15. So the profitability has increased.

[00:28:04] Debbie : Where do you see the next wave of disruption in the OTC and self medication space? What trends do you think will redefine the industry in the next 5 to 10 years? And how can companies future proof themselves to stay ahead? Good question, I'm always 

[00:28:19] Debbie : very anxious when I hear the expression disruption because our consumer is a confused consumer. They don't get the medicine behind their products. 

[00:28:29] Debbie : The trouble is that we all put on a mental whitecoat we We think like pharmacists or R&D people or doctors 

[00:28:36] Nicholas: But the average consumer has got a headache, walks into a store

[00:28:38] Nicholas: and has a simple problem that they want to fix with a simple solution. And we're making it more complicated for them. 

[00:28:44] Nicholas: We're bringing in so many multiple products, multi-symptom products, new ingredients. We're giving them fancy titles. everyone's confused. The doctor who we want to recommend. The pharmacist who we want to sell. The consumer who we want to watch an advertisement engage [00:29:00] with social media or go online for an eCommerce purchase. They're all getting very confused. Our job in a way is not to disrupt. It's to harmonize so the consumer knows how the products work and that will grow the total market, which will grow everybody's share. 

[00:29:14] Nicholas: But the industry plays a zero sum game. In other words, I can only grow if you fall and you can only grow if I fall. That doesn't work. We've got to concentrate on getting overall consumption up. And then if we hold share we'll make more in terms of sales. So I always tell my clients think very carefully before you decide to disrupt the industry and the market. But what will make the difference? We've seen e-commerce come into the market where it's now just under 20% of all sales. Forecast to grow in the next 10 years to be a third of all sales globally with China being 50%. So if you're not in eCommerce, there are still some companies who are not in eCommerce or underweight. Then you're not playing in the marketplace. A little bit like in China, 50% is traditional chinese medicine. [00:30:00] Western companies that don't go into traditional chinese medicine are actually playing in half the market. 

[00:30:04] Nicholas: and there maybe there may be a very good reason for doing it but make it as a conscious decision don't make it as non-conscious decision.

[00:30:10] Nicholas: Now we're faced with the benefits of AI. AI hasn't proved itself yet. There are some tasks that AI does brilliantly, but the sort of the subtlety of engaging with the consumer, of designing products. 

[00:30:22] Nicholas: Probably it's easier to design products with AI than to influence the consumer. I think those companies who are reducing headcount and it's all going and the whole of everything is going to be driven by machines. I think they're going to find it's not like that. It's not space odyssey 2001 where the computer will take over, the robot will take over. I'm not feared about that, but it's the fact that we will assume that AI can do things that it can't do.

[00:30:47] Nicholas: Remember it's making an analog of what's happened in the past and it's making a clever forecast based on the analog, I don't believe it's predictive in that sense, the sort of work that I do, is to try to say , let's get away from the group [00:31:00] think. Don't just draw a straight line and say, if the industry is here today, it will be there tomorrow. It's more a case of saying, what are the unique changes that are going to come?What's driving that change? How do we need to adapt to that? the way that we've dealt with that is I've set up a special group in my company called Creative Solutions, and I personally manage that.

[00:31:20] Nicholas: My title is the Executive Chairman of the whole company and Creative Solutions Director. I spent a lot of time on creative solutions. Looking over the horizon, what will the industry look like in 10 years? How will that affect our consumers and our clients? How would it affect us? What product should we be offering in five to 10 years that we don't offer now or that need to be changed? So it's both inward and outward looking. I've got a great team of people working in creative solutions. Of course, we work with all the other parts of the business, so it's homogenized. And that's the service that we offer consumers. And there's a high degree of take up from that. 

[00:31:55] Nicholas: With so much travel that you have in work across different time [00:32:00] zones , how do you maintain your relationships? Make it meaningful with your network in today's digital age?

[00:32:08] Nicholas: I think the technology has solved that problem because it was a case in the past that you had to travel nonstop. In other words there are all the association meetings. I think with the exception of the European one, I've been a keynote a speaker on multiple occasions in every part of the world and for individual European countries, but for some reason, not with the OTC Association for the whole of Europe. Haven't quite conquered Everest yet. And it used to be difficult and you'd make a trip, I'm going to have two weeks in Asia and there will be three or four key people that you would go to see. And then you build the rest of the trip around it. And then the three people you want to see, call you up and say, I can't make it. But of course, you've made all the other meetings, so you go and see the other people who sometimes turn out to be the best meetings you've had that year, then the pandemic killed that and showed us that video conferencing could [00:33:00] really work. 

[00:33:00] Nicholas: Let me say that it used to be that if you had a video conference with anybody, a client, a network partner or whoever, the view would this is the second tier meeting you can't be bothered to come and see me.

[00:33:13] Nicholas: Now it's first tier for everybody because it's super efficient. I can call a client and say, any chance we can have a video conference this week? And you often get it the same day. Whereas if it, can I come and see you ?

[00:33:24] Nicholas: It was the earliest I can see you is three months, maybe four months. How about next year ? it was very inefficient . So I love that I'm doing a fraction of the travelling. 

[00:33:33] Nicholas: I used to

[00:33:33] Nicholas: have the, top card with Singapore airline I was very close to getting Solitaire then I had the one below. And I'm down to Silver and I think next year they won't even talk to me. 

[00:33:43] Nicholas: but it's a sign of how little traveling I'm doing . And I think my health is better as a result of it. 

[00:33:49] Nicholas: I'd say we all managed our contact a lot better than we used to, because we can deal with tens of thousands. I think if you talk about the inner tier, I probably got [00:34:00] about a thousand contacts.

[00:34:00] Nicholas: I have seven or 8,000 followers on LinkedIn. And I get lots of personal emails. I have a team that answer my LinkedIn inquiries because nobody can keep up with all the emails, I have no other social media. I'm not on X or Instagram or any of those.

[00:34:15] Nicholas: So I'm only on Linkedin and our own system And that's almost a full time job. 

[00:34:20] Debbie : Nicholas, For young professionals looking to make their markwhat's the one piece of advice you'd give to them to thrive and succeed in the consumer health space?  

[00:34:31] Nicholas: I think The advice that I would give anyone wanting to succeed in consumer health is the same advice really for anyone coming into business. It's the old virtues that been preached for many years of listen before you speak, know what the dynamics are of the circumstances but then don't be afraid to speak. I've got four family members in the company, and they've all been through that, clamming up, not wanting to say anything. Smart people. So I say, don't be afraid of falling on your face. As Confucius said, the problem is not [00:35:00] falling on your face its the failure to get up again 

[00:35:02] Nicholas: On the other hand, have some modesty and I think modesty and humility is very important at all levels. Look at amazing people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. billionaires, the humility and the modesty of those people is breathtaking right down to the new recruit. Say that be patient, but I think there's a new factor that the pandemic has changed the work ethic very much amongst the population at large and amongst business people somebody who's really ambitious in the way that I was very ambitious when I came into business to procter and gamble straight out of university. I would say that really the world is your oyster because fewer and fewer people want to make the commitment that will take them into the mid-ranks and the senior ranks. They just don't want to put it in. We hear about how Gen Z and millennials now have very much in the work life balance is very much towards life. The work itself is not enjoyable and I'm [00:36:00] generalizing, of course, and I think that's a pity because I found every job I had was enjoyable and certainly for the 47 years that I've had years that I've this company and have not been an employee of anyone else. I subscribe to that old feeling that if you enjoy your job, you will never do another day's work in your life.

[00:36:17] Nicholas: It's a pleasure.

[00:36:18] Nicholas: I was born optimistic. I have two types of days - I have a good day and I have a better day. Even when I had some medical problems, I still took the view every day is a day worth living. It's a day you can learn something and it's a day to be enjoyed. 

[00:36:33] Nicholas: Almost everybody I've work with has had a great deal from life. The cards were dealt and they were very good cards and I think we all need to put something back, whether it's charity or mentoring, whether it's a faith group, that's individual choice, but I think we all should give something back. My legacy, I hope I've got four family members in the company. We've had multiple offers by the company. We're never for sale. The business is going [00:37:00] into a family asset trust to benefit the family, the staff, the clients, and protect the brand name which happens to be my name. If they change the name after I go, I'm not going to worry about that.

[00:37:09] Nicholas: I do believe genuinely that we provide a good service and I want to keep that legacy going. I want the clients to say nice things in 50 years time when I certainly won't be around unless there are new type of transplant surgery and we can all be regenerated. 

[00:37:22] Nicholas: But in a more conventional way, I just like to think that the successors will carry on with the business. 

[00:37:27] Nicholas: What lasting impact? Do you want to leave on the industry and the next generation of business leaders?I'll take that in two halves. As far as the industry is concerned I'd like to feel that we've made a contribution to helping the industry understand the consumer and in a smaller sense, helping the consumer understand the industry and that self-care actually isn't just as one consumer association A person said at a conference I chaired in Australia.

[00:37:56] Nicholas: You guys are only out to make money. Yes, of course, [00:38:00] without profit, we can't continue. But we do have a huge interest in raising standards of public health. And there are ways that we can do it in consumer health that they can't do it in pharma. One of the biggest problems in pharmaceuticals is compliance.

[00:38:12] Nicholas: Consumers don't take their medicines, patients don't take their medicines even if the medicines are life saving drugs. Advertising or social media can remind consumers very effectively to take their medicines. So I believe that consumer healthcare improves standards of public health, including mental health. for example, I'm heavily involved in smoking control because I was helping Dr. Reddy's with the Nicotinell brand. that's a lifesaver. We have in the industry anti obesity drugs that could also save many lives. So we should never be ashamed of what we sell. And sometimes I feel that we are a little twitchy about that. We do a great job and not just the commercial side

[00:38:52] Nicholas: Some of our drugs actually are life-savers and through better compliance can help generally. In terms [00:39:00] of executives and young executives Debbie, because you've come to some of our training sessions, although you are not a new leader, you are a very senior leader. But I think that sort of work that we do with Steve Sowerby helps people to understand the concept of leadership, of self improvement, of assessing brands, minimizing risks, taking risks. And that's an important part of our business. And I know that will continue that whoever is the future leader or leaders of this company will want to continue.

[00:39:34] Nicholas: And whoever Steve's successors are would want to continue So as I say giving back, social mission very important to us and I hope that would be legacy and that we can help leaders.

[00:39:45] Nicholas: For those that we don't work with directly, I'd say just leaving great case studies behind. So companies can say, look this is how another company or another brand managed this 10, 15, 20 years ago.

[00:39:57] Nicholas: This is what worked. This is what didn't work. This is what they learned. [00:40:00] This is what you look for. This is what you avoid. So I'm feeling quite passionate here, quite messianic. But it is,the daily job has a lot of that in it. So I'm very excited. And joining a podcast like this is a rare chance to be a little bit reflective and to answer great questions.

[00:40:17] Nicholas: So thank you for that. 

[00:40:19] Debbie : Thank you Nicholas. Before we close, I love to know when you're not immersed in your strategizing and health care. How do you unwind? And any hobbies or interests that might surprise our listeners. 

[00:40:32] Nicholas: Obviously there are family commitments and four sons and three grandchildren and four of that cohort of seven are in the company. I see a lot of the family. Some live in UK where I spend time. Some live here in Guernsey where I spend in terms of the more personal ways of unwinding, I've always been fairly philosophical in the sense that from the earliest time I always worked from home.

[00:40:54] Nicholas: So 47 years, I've very largely worked from home, even though we have an office for 50 and an [00:41:00] office for five or six people in Singapore. And I've enjoyed that ability to have the flexibility at home. If I want to work in the middle of the night, I can, not everybody wants to do this and shouldn't do it.

[00:41:11] Nicholas: But for me personally, I like the fact that if I need a bit of time off in the afternoon, I can have it. I'm a voracious reader. although increasingly I'm a voracious listener to me, one of the greatest advances was the audio book. 

[00:41:26] Nicholas: And on my iphone, I can have 1500 audio books and, I just love that.Books, I can't get on, audio books I have Kindle. I'm a great believer in Kindle, not the little Kindle machines.

[00:41:37] Nicholas: I have the app.Kindle app on my iPhone and my iPad. But probably what people don't know is that I spend a lot of time writing poetry and I've been writing poetry for 50 years.

[00:41:46] Nicholas: In the last two years I've written 40 poems. I'm not looking to publish. I circulate them to a few friends, a few chosen friends, who I know will be very kind with me. But I'm a traditional poet in the sense that I believe in meter, I believe in rhyme, [00:42:00] I don't believe in stream of conscious thought.

[00:42:02] Nicholas: Although that may be the first step to get to a finished poem. I'd never be able to write a novel, although I do a lot of writing within the company. Hopefully it's not fiction when I write business plans. But I love poetry because you can write a 14 line sonnet. if you've got half an hour. Things have got a little bit on top of you. I just go to another room in the house, sit down, take out my latest poem and work on it. I find that amazing sense of unwinding and as you get older and the gray cells have to be stimulated. Poetry, crosswords, and meditating at night, going to bed thinking of something that you want to solve that keeps the brain very active 

[00:42:40] Debbie : it's been a real pleasure having you on the show today, as always. Your expertise in the OTC landscape and your vision for the future of the consumer health care have been incredibly insightful. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with our listener and to myself as well

[00:42:56] Nicholas: Thank you so much, Debbie. Good luck with the project maybe in [00:43:00] 20 years time, you'll invite me back for the latest thoughts on life and business.

[00:43:04] Debbie : Earlier than that, definitely. To learn more about the latest trends in consumer health care, Be sure to visit the Nicholas Hall group website at nicholashall. com. You'll find all the links and resources in our show notes.